The League Against Chardonnay

[Effigy]

A couple of years ago, me and a few work colleagues were deliberating over our Friday-Lunchtime-Steak-and-Wine about the merits of white wine, and the fact that supermarket shelves were groaning under the weight of Chardonnay (and very mediocre Chardonnay at that), almost to the exclusion of other white wines.

So we decided to form the League Against Chardonnay, in an effort to stamp out the worldwide domination of this God-awful stuff.

Being a confirmed red wine drinker, I agree with Shakespeare when he said: "All White Wine is B*ll*cks" (At least, I think it was Shakespeare:rolleyes: )

What do the Esteemed Gentlemen of the Speakesy think?

[kuzmo]

I used to drink white wine when I was younger (as my mother drank only white wine and she taught me about wines). Now, when I'm older I really preffer red wines (or rose) and do not drink white wine at all. I never really liked Chardonnay and thought I'm the only one god-forsaken guy who is not worthy to speak about wines :blush: Count me in :wink: !

[Stauff]

Make me a member! Chardonnay is highly overrated. Quality Riesling is what everyone should be drinking IMO.

[kuzmo]

Make me a member! Chardonnay is highly overrated. Quality Riesling is what everyone should be drinking IMO.

Can you recommend some Riesling please? I only drank Slovak Riesling which is very high quality and would like to compare it to other (same type) wine...

[Stauff]

How about Ruppertsberger? Nice and affordable.

[kuzmo]

How about Ruppertsberger? Nice and affordable.

Ok put it to my Notices. Thanks! :smile:

[Lyrt]

Gewurztraminer.

[TimmyBoston]

I too am a confirmed red wine drinker. I greatly prefer it, and if I do have white, it's usually an occasional Sauvignon Blanc. I do have to say that I do enjoy Cakebread Chardonnay though, it is a rare gem in the oh so bland Chardonnay world.

Reminds me of Sideways by Rex Pickett, (novel that the film was based on) when he berates Merlot, but Petrus notwithstanding.

[rikrdo]

I must disagree.
I am not a big fan of Chardonnay, however.....

Wine must be paired with food.....IMHO.
That being said,
Chardonnay with the right food can be delightful.:a54:

[TimmyBoston]

Chardonnay with the right food can be delightful.:a54:

Rick, I'll give you that. One of my favorite meals is to go out to a steakhouse, a quality Chard can pair quite nicely with wedge loaded with bleu cheese before the main course.

But on the whole and just to drink by itself, I greatly prefer a quality red over a quality white.

[TimmyBoston]

Make me a member! Chardonnay is highly overrated. Quality Riesling is what everyone should be drinking IMO.

I've always found reislings to be too sweet and they give me acid reflux terribly, but do you have a great ones you've found that you recommend?

[rikrdo]

Rick, I'll give you that. One of my favorite meals is to go out to a steakhouse, a quality Chard can pair quite nicely with wedge loaded with bleu cheese before the main course.

But on the whole and just to drink by itself, I greatly prefer a quality red over a quality white.


You know....
I shouldve added this to my first post....
I'll hardly ever drink a glass of wine by itself.
If I just want a beverage it's gonna be a Beer or a cocktail.

[greendyk]

I'll join the club. It's red for me, plus maybe the occasional Sauvignon Blanc. Now perhaps if I could afford the great whites from Burgundy (e.g. Montrachet), I'd be singing a different tune.

John

[Effigy]

Chardonnay with the right food can be delightful.:a54:

I can't even begin to imagine what food would make Chardonnay 'delightful':confused:

Nope...you've got me there!:confused:

This piss-poor slight to the wine-makers art should hauled off every supermarket shelf and cast into the firey pits of Mt. Doom, and anyone who drinks it should be boiled in a Vat of the stuff!:eek:

There is nothing that you could pair with a Chardonnay, that would not be vastly improved by sticking it with a red.

The League Against Chardonnay still stands!:biggrin:

[kozulich]

Make me a member! Chardonnay is highly overrated. Quality Riesling is what everyone should be drinking IMO.

Agreed!! A quality gewürztraminer makes a nice change as well.

[TimmyBoston]

I can't even begin to imagine what food would make Chardonnay 'delightful':confused:

Nope...you've got me there!:confused:

This piss-poor slight to the wine-makers art should hauled off every supermarket shelf and cast into the firey pits of Mt. Doom, and anyone who drinks it should be boiled in a Vat of the stuff!:eek:

There is nothing that you could pair with a Chardonnay, that would not be vastly improved by sticking it with a red.

The League Against Chardonnay still stands!:biggrin:

Frank, I agree with you about nearly all Supermarket Chards, but IMO I'm not impressed with most Supermarket reds either. And on the whole, I don't drink white, I haven't bought a bottle of white in a long time and I bought two great Cab's just yesterday. I support your league in spirit, but I can't put down all Chards, just nearly all of them. Sometime if you're at a restaurant and they have, just try a taste (if you can get it) of the Cakebread Chard, IMO it's miles away from the rest.

Now whatever you do, don't get my started on White Zinfandel, now I think drinking that should be made illegal. :biggrin:

[Effigy]

Tim, I dont know what the market is like in the U.S. for wines generally, but here in the U.K. things have improved by leaps and bounds.

Go to any of the top 5 or 6 supermarkets and you will not buy a bad bottle of wine (unless you buy chardonnay, of course:rolleyes: ). In fact, most of the wine magazines tell you to buy a supermarket Own-label wine as they are such good value for money.

My favourites at the moment are Italian and the finer French wines, though I do like a good Pinotage and most of the Oz/New Zealand offerings.

Ahhhh....a day without wine is like a day without the Sun!

And remember: Life's too short to drink Bad Wine:biggrin:

[TimmyBoston]

And remember: Life's too short to drink Bad Wine:biggrin:

Here, Here! :biggrin:

[ouch]

I thought it was called ABC: anything but chardonnay.

I have a lot of friends who would immediately assume that I'm the president of your club. Not true. Chardonnay suffers from the same problem currently ruining the Merlot market- overproduction. The reason for this is simple: most folks know nothing at all about wine, but still want to be able to enjoy it. One of the biggest problems they face is what to order. If they're able to muster a simple "I'll have the chardonnay", they feel better. Same for Merlot. I think people just like to say the word merlot, even if they pronounce it incorrectly.
This is the exact same reason why the biggest selling burgundy is Beaune (pronounced BONE). Apparently, this is a word that is easy to pronounce by virtually everyone on earth, and spares wealthy asian buyers the embarrassment of attempting to order a Puligny Montrachet, Caillerets.

Now I'm all for your league, and the world will surely be a better place if people learned more about Rieslings, Chenin Blanc, Gewurtztraminers, Viognier, and Scheurebe. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Chardonnay still makes some of the best white wines going. As with other things, what is required is simply a bit of knowledge.

Back to the original post: if you want good alternatives for chardonnay, try wines form the Loire, Alsace, and Germany.

[Gatorade]

I think every wine has a perfect compliment or occasion. While in Napa on a visit we went by a winery named Freemark Abby. They were just finishing a desert wine. It was syrupy in appearance and super sweet. My wife and I puckered at the taste of it. Then the person who was pouring the wine for us handed us a tray of some little sweet desert, possibly even a piece of fruit. (There were a lot of wineries that day!) So we ate the sweet and then drank the wine. If I didn't know I had the same glass in my hand I would have thought you had switched the contents. It blended so nicely with the sweet desert stuff.

Chardonay has it's place and time just like all other wines. If I am drinking a stand alone glass of wine then sure I would pour a Cab or Bourdoux, Merlot, red Zin (I love the Ravenswood stuff!) or something along those lines. But with other wines it is more about what is it being drank with than how it stands alone in the bottle.

[ouch]

Good points. Ravenswood makes some terrific Zinfandel. I don't understand why it isn't more popular, as it's really the "American" wine, and often comes off better than our attempts at Bordeaux/Rhone style wines. Don't even get me started on new world Pinot.:001_rolle

:thumbup1:

[MacArthur Mike]

I am a big Italian wine drinker and I have this same problem with people who drink the only Italian white wine that they have ever heard of Pinot Grigio. It is due to the mass market (same with Chardonnay) approach. Its easy to find the Chards and the Pinot Grigio's because that is what most stores have a lot of. The true finds are Italian whites like Orvieto Classico, Gavi di Gavi (rare and minerally) or even a French Alsace or White Burgundy.

If you are ever in NYC, search out Italian Wine Merchant, they will set you up with a nice Italian white wine with a lot more depth and flavor than a boring Pinot Grigio.

[Effigy]

Hi Mike,
I practically only ever drink Reds, but my 'house wine' is a Bardolino. I buy it by the case and its always there on hand.

I have had many happy vacations in the Bardolino region, so it always brings back happy memories.







I am a big Italian wine drinker and I have this same problem with people who drink the only Italian white wine that they have ever heard of Pinot Grigio. It is due to the mass market (same with Chardonnay) approach. Its easy to find the Chards and the Pinot Grigio's because that is what most stores have a lot of. The true finds are Italian whites like Orvieto Classico, Gavi di Gavi (rare and minerally) or even a French Alsace or White Burgundy.

If you are ever in NYC, search out Italian Wine Merchant, they will set you up with a nice Italian white wine with a lot more depth and flavor than a boring Pinot Grigio.

[jduffy]

Your just not getting to the right chards and pairing them with great grub.

Now if you were blasting merlot, I'd join your club. Merlot has no soul! :eek:

[BroJohn]

I favor reds, too. I also dislike the Pinot Grigio and Chards that infest the market. I *do* like some of the whites, but favor the German and Alsacian wines.

I don't have any depth in wine knowledge, but do enjoy a nice Claret.

-- John Gehman

[Effigy]

Of course, no one has yet mentioned the major flaw in my argument.

My all-time-favourite white wine (which I drink whenever I can) is made from the Chardonnay grape:eek:







Champagne:a54:


But of course, this is the Chardonnay grape that made good, educated itself and moved up-market away from its low-life roots.:biggrin:

[Scotto]

For a while Chardonnay turned into a game of who could put the most oak into the wine. It produced some truly awful products. If you look at some of the "old school" treatments of the grape you can still find some nice stuff. Personally I am 99% a red wine drinker, but now and again I find myself reaching for a nice sauvignon blanc, riesling, etc.

[rikrdo]

....FWIW

California Central Coast is / has been
producing some very nice
"NON-Oaked" Chards for the past several years.
But....
I dont want to encourage any one to consume them
as they will be doomed to suffer boiling in a vat of it. :w00t:

[ouch]

Your just not getting to the right chards and pairing them with great grub.

Now if you were blasting merlot, I'd join your club. Merlot has no soul! :eek:

Yep. The 50% merlot used in this blend has completely ruined the wine.:tongue_sm

(Anyone see Sidewyas?)

[ouch]

And this 100% merlot is godawful.:lol:

[Scotto]

Show-off! :001_tt1:

[rikrdo]

Yep. The 50% merlot used in this blend has completely ruined the wine.:tongue_sm

(Anyone see Sidewyas?)


Can I PLEASE be invited over sometime ??!!
I promise not to bring Royale Yucch !
I'll give ya a Matzhold !!
.......wait. Thatll cost ya 2 meals ! :thumbup:

[boboakalfb]

In addition to Cakebread's offering I would also suggest Rombauer's Chard as well. I lean way more to the Reds but wouldn't say lets get rid of the Chard altogether.

[Stauff]

I've always found reislings to be too sweet and they give me acid reflux terribly, but do you have a great ones you've found that you recommend?

Many cheap German wines are sweet, but there are great dry ones as well. A couple of years ago, the German wine board launched the label 'qualitätswein' to indicate that it is a dry specimen. I mostly get Ruppertsberger, which at about 9 EUR a bottle is good vfm. I love the wonderful mineral flavours in Riesling, something that is much more absent in Chardonnays.

[ouch]

I may have a better bottle to post after the weekend. My friend promised me a "surprise" the next time I see him, and I have some inside information that it will either be a '49 Cheval Blanc or an 1865 Latour (not a misprint). :a54: :a17:

[rikrdo]

I may have a better bottle to post after the weekend. My friend promised me a "surprise" the next time I see him, and I have some inside information that it will either be a '49 Cheval Blanc or an 1865 Latour (not a misprint). :a54: :a17:


Can you pick me up??
Im booking a flight as we speak !:lol:

[kozulich]

I favor reds, too. I also dislike the Pinot Grigio and Chards that infest the market. I *do* like some of the whites, but favor the German and Alsacian wines.
-- John Gehman

My favorite German region is the Nahe (http://www.chiff.com/wine/europe/nahe.htm). Hard to come by here in the States, and practically unknown, but it combines the best attributes of both the Rhine and Moselle wines.

[ouch]

As for perceived sweetness, a lot has to do with one's palate. Serve a group of Americans a spatlese, for example, and they will probably all say it is sweet, while a group of Germans would say it is dry.

All in all, I'd have to say that Germany makes my favorite white wines. Producers such as J. J. Prum, Lingenfelder, Muller-Catoir, Neckerauer, von Schubert-Maximin Grunhaus, and Heribert Kerpen make some of the best whites I've tried.

[letterk]

I thought it was called ABC: anything but chardonnay.

I have a lot of friends who would immediately assume that I'm the president of your club. Not true. Chardonnay suffers from the same problem currently ruining the Merlot market- overproduction. The reason for this is simple: most folks know nothing at all about wine, but still want to be able to enjoy it. One of the biggest problems they face is what to order. If they're able to muster a simple "I'll have the chardonnay", they feel better. Same for Merlot. I think people just like to say the word merlot, even if they pronounce it incorrectly.
This is the exact same reason why the biggest selling burgundy is Beaune (pronounced BONE). Apparently, this is a word that is easy to pronounce by virtually everyone on earth, and spares wealthy asian buyers the embarrassment of attempting to order a Puligny Montrachet, Caillerets.

Now I'm all for your league, and the world will surely be a better place if people learned more about Rieslings, Chenin Blanc, Gewurtztraminers, Viognier, and Scheurebe. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Chardonnay still makes some of the best white wines going. As with other things, what is required is simply a bit of knowledge.

Back to the original post: if you want good alternatives for chardonnay, try wines form the Loire, Alsace, and Germany.

+1

While I prefer reds (and drink them most of the time), as with most any type of wine, there are good examples and bad examples. It's a pitty that Chardonnay (and Merlot for that matter) seem to have more bad examples.

[Bunker950]

Hi Gents

I just think you have not met the best Chardonnay yet. The best Chards are produced in South Africa. The likes of Danie de Wet from the Dewetshof vineyard and Hamilton Russel produce some of the best Chardonnay in the world. Dewetshof also produce a unwooded Chardonnay.

I am mostly a red wine drinker, but enjoy a descent Chardonnay or Sauvignon Blanc and Chenin Blanc from time to time. I absolutely hate Riesling.... if I want to drink apples, I order a cider.

Once again the law applies.... you get what you pay for. Buy cheap supermarket "value for money" wines and you'll experience cheap value for money taste. Open the wallet a bit more and you'll have a total different experience.

Steven

[ouch]

Hi Gents

I just think you have not met the best Chardonnay yet. The best Chards are produced in South Africa. The likes of Danie de Wet from the Dewetshof vineyard and Hamilton Russel produce some of the best Chardonnay in the world. Dewetshof also produce a unwooded Chardonnay.

I am mostly a red wine drinker, but enjoy a descent Chardonnay or Sauvignon Blanc and Chenin Blanc from time to time. I absolutely hate Riesling.... if I want to drink apples, I order a cider.

Once again the law applies.... you get what you pay for. Buy cheap supermarket "value for money" wines and you'll experience cheap value for money taste. Open the wallet a bit more and you'll have a total different experience.

Steven

Quick! Sell the Corton-Charlemagne and Batard-Montrachet!:lol:

[Lyrt]

Buy cheap supermarket "value for money" wines and you'll experience cheap value for money taste. Open the wallet a bit more and you'll have a total different experience.
Steven
One of my favourite pastimes is to look for tasty, decently priced wines. There are some solid appellation contrôlée you can’t go wrong with, but it’s much more fun to find an inexpensive wine which offers the same quality as a reputed label.

I have to say it is quite easy here in Languedoc-Roussillon, because overproduction these past few years led many producers to lower their prices.

Most of the wines I enjoy are between 2 and 5€. On special occasions, I do like to share with my friend special wines priced from 15 to 30€ which have something different to offer. Above that, I have to admit my palate is not so discerning.

[Effigy]

Bunker950, you are correct - Danie de Wet does produce some outstanding wines!

[Bunker950]

Frank

Living previously in SA, I had the priviledge to visit the Dewetshof vineyard. Truelly remarkable. There are other estates that also produce some excellent wines....both red and white. If you have the opprtunity to buy SA Chardonnay, try to buy Chardonnay produced in the Robertson region.IMHO it is better than the Chardonnay produced in Stellenbosch.

Steven

[ouch]

One of my favourite pastimes is to look for tasty, decently priced wines. There are some solid appellation contrôlée you can’t go wrong with, but it’s much more fun to find an inexpensive wine which offers the same quality as a reputed label.

I have to say it is quite easy here in Languedoc-Roussillon, because overproduction these past few years led many producers to lower their prices.

Most of the wines I enjoy are between 2 and 5€. On special occasions, I do like to share with my friend special wines priced from 15 to 30€ which have something different to offer. Above that, I have to admit my palate is not so discerning.

My favorite place for wine value.

[ratcheer]

So we decided to form the League Against Chardonnay, in an effort to stamp out the worldwide domination of this God-awful stuff.

Being a confirmed red wine drinker, I agree with Shakespeare when he said: "All White Wine is B*ll*cks" (At least, I think it was Shakespeare:rolleyes: )

What do the Esteemed Gentlemen of the Speakesy think?

I agree - with you and Shakespeare. :wink: I like champagne, though. :rolleyes:

Tim

[TimmyBoston]

Yep. (Anyone see Sidewyas?)

Come on, in the book Sideways, the author specifically defends Petrus! :biggrin:

And Jay that is showing off! :biggrin:
I've got some shaving gear you wanna trade for that wine? :lol:

[180gVinyl]

There are a number of commercial "New World" chardonnays (Oz,California,Chile) that suffer from the "high alcohol,oak chips and tinned fruit" interpretation of this grape.

There are others though that are testaments to Chardonnay being the greatest of white wine grapes

The burgundian style producers of the New World from regions such as:

Elgin and Stellenbosch in South Africa

Marlborough, Nelson and Hawkes Bay in New Zealand

Napa and Sonoma Valley

are responsible for some exemplary wines


And if someone mentions "Corton Charlemagne", I just might go weak at the knees


If we're talking red wine then I'm a devotee of the wines of the Medoc, the Northern Rhone and the Clare and Barossa Valleys

Cheers

Rob

[moses]

Hmmm.... Late to this thread. Couple things, though.

First, I think chardonnay is a lovely grape. 95% of the wines made from it that are sold in this country are crap. It is probably abused more than merlot in this way. But the grape has all kinds of potential.

I very much DO NOT agree that wine is totally a get what you pay for world where you have to open your wallet to get something good. There are a lot of amazing wines for < $20 (if you want a reliably good, and possibly amazing white for this, start looking for Lucien Albrecht. Especially the gewurtz). One of the better reds I've ever had is 2000 (03 very good also) Castell de Remei Gotim Bru. A fantastic rich, nuanced, generally damn near perfect Spanish red. Needs to breath a while (less now that it has aged a little). Not just me, btw. I believe Parker gave the 1999 an 89, and the 2000 around a 91-92. About $10. That's just one example. There is a Shiraz out there that I paid $30 for, that in the right year (2000 I think it was), would seriously stand up with The Grange, or even Hill of Grace (ok, it was not that good. Nothing is that good. NOTHING I TELL YOU. But it wouldn't be embarrassed to be in a tasting flight with it).

About the Reislings being too sweet for you. If you find this, generally avoid the Germans for now, and buy Alsatian. Usually bone dry, and with a lot of character. Although, their Gewurtzes kinda make one pass over the reisling....

If you are some kind of snob who thinks americans can't do Pinot Noir, :smile: you just have not had the right one. (This is one area, though, where it does seem you need to shell out a little cash). I had a 1995 Signorello (Napa) once that was extraordinary. Sure made the Stag's Leap stuff I'd just tasted seem extremely ordinary by comparison.

-Mo

[jduffy]

For a while Chardonnay turned into a game of who could put the most oak into the wine. It produced some truly awful products. If you look at some of the "old school" treatments of the grape you can still find some nice stuff. Personally I am 99% a red wine drinker, but now and again I find myself reaching for a nice sauvignon blanc, riesling, etc.

Exactly! It got to be insane. And to top it off, I don't like the oak taste.

A friend of mine has one of the better Chards and luckily I don't have to pay full price for it.

It pays to know someone with vineyards and cellars! :biggrin:

[Stauff]

Mind you, fellas, it's Riesling not Reisling. :smartass:

[ouch]

Come on, in the book Sideways, the author specifically defends Petrus! :biggrin:

And Jay that is showing off! :biggrin:
I've got some shaving gear you wanna trade for that wine? :lol:

Actually, the Sideways reference was to the bottle of '61 Cheval Blanc that Paul Giamatti drank in the fast food restaurant.:biggrin1:

[rikrdo]

Actually, the Sideways reference was to the bottle of '61 Cheval Blanc that Paul Giamatti drank in the fast food restaurant.:biggrin1:


If memory serves...
Miles washed down a tasty burger with that '61 ??
and Daniel Gehrs from Los Olivos / Santa Ynez / Solvang
serves up a pretty excellent Merlot.
I dont care what anybody says !!! :thumbup1:

[ouch]

I couldn't agree more with Moses'* post regarding price. Once your palate is sufficiently educated (ie: you have learned to trust your own opinion over written reviews) you can find great wines for a song. Jorge Ordonez's Vina Borgia garnered 89 pts from Parker, and I pay less than $4 a bottle by the case. Great values abound.

Still, have to disagree about the pinot, though. It's the hardest grape to tame, and is positively awful when it's not great. It is also the grape around which the entire concept of terroir was first formulated. Pinot is so susceptible to changes in microclimate, that a premier cru vinyard may exist just a stones throw away from a plot that produces village level wine. America certainly has the tools to produce good pinot, but will need many years to classify the many vinyards. Who knows? There may just be a little Romanee Conti-like plot tucked away somewhere in Oregon.



*I'm not an English major, but I think this is the correct possesive form for "Moses". A lot of people just put an apostrophe after a name ending in "s", eg: Boris' razor. The correct way would be to say Boris's razor. The name Moses (and Jesus) is considered an exception because it would result in the pronuncuation of three consecutive "s" sounds- Moses's or Jesus's doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. As always, there are tons of exceptions.

I only mention this because my daughter's name ends in an "s", and she receives numerous correspondences that are incorrect.

[fuerein]

*I'm not an English major, but I think this is the correct possesive form for "Moses". A lot of people just put an apostrophe after a name ending in "s", eg: Boris' razor. The correct way would be to say Boris's razor. The name Moses (and Jesus) is considered an exception because it would result in the pronuncuation of three consecutive "s" sounds- Moses's or Jesus's doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. As always, there are tons of exceptions.

I only mention this because my daughter's name ends in an "s", and she receives numerous correspondences that are incorrect.

There is an interesting discussion of this on this forum (http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=69067).

The jist of what the people on that forum said is that with names ending in "s" both s' and s's are proper forms, it depends more on which style guide you are looking at. Certain styles require different rules regarding that particularr issue. Regarding names like Moses and Jesus, it is still debated between style guides as to whether Jesus' or Jesus's is correct. Personally I always use 's to be sure to differentiate from plural possesive.

[ouch]

That's what I love about this site (and the english language)- you can start a fight about anything.

:lol:

[kozulich]

There are a number of commercial "New World" chardonnays (Oz,California,Chile) that suffer from the "high alcohol,oak chips and tinned fruit" interpretation of this grape.

Great way to describe it! That pretty much describes my beef with Chard. But I also find that such happens to just about any wine that finally makes it to fad level. When white Zin was popular it got abused in a similar way, though I was really too young to appreciate what was happening at that time. Same with Merlot, Chardonnay. Supposedly, Riesling is the next rising star of the wine world according to some critics. I cringe at the thought of what will happen to that grape.

My mother's family going way back are vintners from the German Nahe region. I myself have been involved with just about every step of the winemaking process at differant vineyards in the area since I was a little kid. The grapes that are most common there are Mueller-Thurgau, Sylvaner, Riesling, Muskat, and Traminer (not neccessarily in that order).

Back in 2000, we finally moved my Grandmother here from Germany. After a lifetime of making and tasting German wine (she was 93), in her opinion the Fetzer gewurztraminer was the only german style California wine that she ever declared excellent. I have to agree, and the best part is that it can be had for a ridiculously low price. So now you know my secret bargain wine. Incidentally, the nice thing about gewurz is that its aromatic, so you can drink it with foods that you would normally not associate with white wine. Especially spicy foods.

[rikrdo]

Fetzer GeWurz....


Thanks for that Orest !
Finally something good I can readily find in my NOTW :thumbup1:

[moses]

Still, have to disagree about the pinot, though. It's the hardest grape to tame, and is positively awful when it's not great. It is also the grape around which the entire concept of terroir was first formulated. Pinot is so susceptible to changes in microclimate, that a premier cru vinyard may exist just a stones throw away from a plot that produces village level wine. America certainly has the tools to produce good pinot, but will need many years to classify the many vinyards. Who knows? There may just be a little Romanee Conti-like plot tucked away somewhere in Oregon.


Indeed. I did not say, btw, that american Pinot is generally good, or even often good. Just that I have had about three that were good. So it is possible to find excellent ones.

-Mo

[TimmyBoston]

There is a Shiraz out there that I paid 30 for, that in the right year (2000 I think it was), would seriously stand up with The Grange,

Now do you remember which one this was? Grange is tough to match. Was it '98, if memory serves correctly was a superb year for The Grange, but often memory doesnt serve me very well.

[mrob]

Don't even get me started on new world Pinot.:001_rolle

:thumbup1:

Yeah, what is it about most Pinots? They just seem thin and watery. . .not at all appetizing. What gives?

I *want* to like Pinot. . .

[mrob]

*I'm not an English major, but I think this is the correct possesive form for "Moses". A lot of people just put an apostrophe after a name ending in "s", eg: Boris' razor. The correct way would be to say Boris's razor. The name Moses (and Jesus) is considered an exception because it would result in the pronuncuation of three consecutive "s" sounds- Moses's or Jesus's doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. As always, there are tons of exceptions.

I only mention this because my daughter's name ends in an "s", and she receives numerous correspondences that are incorrect.

Also not an English major--thank God!--but do have to grade many papers. . .

Either usage is acceptable:

Moses' razor, Moses's razor

The choice is often left to the user, and depends on pronounce-ability.:biggrin:

[moses]

Now do you remember which one this was? Grange is tough to match. Was it '98, if memory serves correctly was a superb year for The Grange, but often memory doesnt serve me very well.

Well, the main reason I did not post the name/year is that the rest of my bottles of it are at home, not in my apartment in the godforsaken city, and I cannot for the life of me remember. I think the Grange I had was '98.

Ah yes, that was it Thorn Clarke's "William Randall" Barossa Valley. Do not remember the year, though.

-Mo

[180gVinyl]

Never had the disposable income to buy Grange (About £120 a bottle in Britain)

But have enjoyed

Grant Burge Miamba

Hardy's Tintara

Tim Adams Clare Valley

D'Arenberg The Footbolt


At a more reasonable level

[Ken]

When I first started drinking California Pinot Noirs many years ago, they were not very good, to say the least. The best have improved dramatically in recent years. They are not always copies of Burgundy, but have their own merits. The last issue of the Wine Spectator blessed the coming of age of Pinot Noir with an issue in which a significant number of Pinot Noirs were evaluated highly and with great enthusiasm. Actually finding them of course is another thing.

Ken

[Phog Allen]

One of the better reds I've ever had is 2000 (03 very good also) Castell de Remei Gotim Bru. A fantastic rich, nuanced, generally damn near perfect Spanish red. Needs to breath a while (less now that it has aged a little). Not just me, btw. I believe Parker gave the 1999 an 89, and the 2000 around a 91-92. About $10.

Thanks for sharing that Mo. I'm no wine connieseur but do like tawny port for it's buttery texture. I've had some Zinfandel that was very good, at least to my untrained palate. One of the best pieces of advice I have ever been given was by one of our local spirit retailers. He told me that generally there is more bang for buck by jumping from the $8-14 to say, 14-25 dollar per bottle of wine than any other price range. So far this has been solid. Especially for someone like me who doesn't drink wine daily or even weekly at times. Above this price ceiling he told me that you really need a more educated palate to honestly tell what's going on with a wine. This chap has a store that I'd say conserviately has about 10,000 bottles of wine on display at any one time. Row after row of wines from just about everywhere. Of course I'm sure that many of the tiny, super premium wineries are scarce there but he has wines from a LOT of different countries and regions. He has yet to lead me astray. I immediately picked up on your refence to this Spaniard. I have been fascinated with trying some Spanish reds the last few years. Of course the sherries are always forefront in most minds when the land of the Cid is mentioned. However, the reds have been mentioned as some very great values in price and taste. Sounds like I may need to find this one.

Regards ,Todd

[moses]

Thanks for sharing that Mo. I'm no wine connieseur but do like tawny port for it's buttery texture. I've had some Zinfandel that was very good, at least to my untrained palate. One of the best pieces of advice I have ever been given was by one of our local spirit retailers. He told me that generally there is more bang for buck by jumping from the $8-14 to say, 14-25 dollar per bottle of wine than any other price range. So far this has been solid. Especially for someone like me who doesn't drink wine daily or even weekly at times. Above this price ceiling he told me that you really need a more educated palate to honestly tell what's going on with a wine. This chap has a store that I'd say conserviately has about 10,000 bottles of wine on display at any one time. Row after row of wines from just about everywhere. Of course I'm sure that many of the tiny, super premium wineries are scarce there but he has wines from a LOT of different countries and regions. He has yet to lead me astray. I immediately picked up on your refence to this Spaniard. I have been fascinated with trying some Spanish reds the last few years. Of course the sherries are always forefront in most minds when the land of the Cid is mentioned. However, the reds have been mentioned as some very great values in price and taste. Sounds like I may need to find this one.

Regards ,Todd

Good luck finding it, Todd. It is worth finding. It is a little difficult to track down, but not impossible. The best way to find good wine, though, is asking the person who sells it. You just have to find the right one. Someone who has actually tasted most of the stuff in his/her store, and is honest enough to steer you to a $10 bottle instead of a $30 bottle if the cheaper one is better.

-Mo

[Steelforge]

I used to be a red wine drinker, and I detested white wine and the people who drank it. Then I went on a trip to Australia and went round about 20 of the top vinyards in Yarra Valley and Clare Valley.

I have to say, sitting outside under a cloudless blue sky sipping a chilled chardonnay or riesling of high quality - I realised that there's a time and a place for it. Back home in cold foggy England a decent red served at room temperature seems much more appropriate.

For me, different wines work for different situations. You have to pick the one which is most appropriate for the place, weather, meal etc. If you start stereotyping all wines of a certain type, them IMO you could miss out.

But each to their own. :smile:

Chandon Vinyard, Yarra Valley. :cool:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/Iwan_P1/IMG_0413.jpg

[ouch]

Never had the disposable income to buy Grange (About £120 a bottle in Britain)

But have enjoyed

Grant Burge Miamba

Hardy's Tintara

Tim Adams Clare Valley

D'Arenberg The Footbolt


At a more reasonable level

D'Arenberg's Dead Arm is better than the Grange.:biggrin:

[rickw]

At one time American Chards had a smokey flavor that left an after taste that reminded me of kerosene. Then one yeaar I was flying to Europe and they were serving A Hungarian Chard by Gal Tabor. Great. Since then I have found that many American Chards have dropped the smokey flavor and are more like the European version.

Rick