Big Papi Was a Big Juicer

[TstebinsB]

So both Manny and Ortiz are on the 2003 list of players who tested positive for PEDs. I guess we won't be hearing any more A-Roid chants in Fenway Park. :wink: It isn't news to most of you but to a Yankees fan, the Boston Roid Sox has a nice ring to it.

[TstebinsB]

This thread got 1 star. :biggrin:

[gollum83]

It could be that it's coming off as a bit provocative.

[richmondesi]

Here's the deal. There are going to be more guys on both of those teams added to the list of added juicers. That's why being fanatical about stuff like this is dangerous. I know a lot of big leaguers and one of the main reasons that I got out of the game was that I didn't want to compete for those few jobs with guys that were juicing because I wasn't going to do it.

[Confilo]

So both Manny and Ortiz are on the 2003 list of players who tested positive for PEDs. I guess we won't be hearing any more A-Roid chants in Fenway Park. :wink: It isn't news to most of you but to a Yankees fan, the Boston Roid Sox has a nice ring to it.

Well, this report just came out from the NYTimes... wonder of wonders, Manny is not our problem anymore but with Ortiz he is innocent til proven guilty, like A ROiD and ROiDCKET Clemens :001_smile

[richmondesi]

Well, this report just came out from the NYTimes... wonder of wonders, Manny is not our problem anymore but with Ortiz he is innocent til proven guilty, like A ROiD and ROiDCKET Clemens :001_smile

I don't think that the Sox Nation should be so self-righteous...

Steroid Training (http://bases.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/11/2803032-did-the-red-sox-provide-steroids-training)

I may or may not have shared this here, but I got a very similar training session with our strength and conditioning coach when I was in the Blue Jays organization. It was much more casual (private conversations with several guys instead of a formal meeting).

[gollum83]

I don't think that the Sox Nation should be so self-righteous...

Steroid Training (http://bases.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/11/2803032-did-the-red-sox-provide-steroids-training)

I may or may not have shared this here, but I got a very similar training session with our strength and conditioning coach when I was in the Blue Jays organization. It was much more casual (private conversations with several guys instead of a formal meeting).

Really? You were with the Blue Jays organization once upon a time? That's cool.

[richmondesi]

Really? You were with the Blue Jays organization once upon a time? That's cool.

Yep. I made the decision to quit when I knew I wasn't going to roid it up, and my daughter was born in the off-season so I just stayed home with the family instead of reporting to Spring Training:001_smile

[smoothjim]

So both Manny and Ortiz are on the 2003 list of players who tested positive for PEDs. I guess we won't be hearing any more A-Roid chants in Fenway Park. :wink: It isn't news to most of you but to a Yankees fan, the Boston Roid Sox has a nice ring to it.
Probably so.


The thing is, whether ARod, Sosa, Manny, Ortiz, or Bonds, and pretty much everyone else, PEDs don't do anything regarding PE.

[richmondesi]

Probably so.


The thing is, whether ARod, Sosa, Manny, Ortiz, or Bonds, and pretty much everyone else, PEDs don't do anything regarding PE.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[gollum83]

Yep. I made the decision to quit when I knew I wasn't going to roid it up, and my daughter was born in the off-season so I just stayed home with the family instead of reporting to Spring Training:001_smile

I can't blame you for doing that. That stuff will mess you up. Still I'm curious, did you actually make it up the Big Leagues at all?

[Confilo]

I don't think that the Sox Nation should be so self-righteous...

Steroid Training (http://bases.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/11/2803032-did-the-red-sox-provide-steroids-training)

I may or may not have shared this here, but I got a very similar training session with our strength and conditioning coach when I was in the Blue Jays organization. It was much more casual (private conversations with several guys instead of a formal meeting).

Paul,
Red Sox nation self righteous? I don't think so. Maybe MLB that taken so long to acknowledge and deal with the steroid issue one way or another.
Merloni was a replacement player and barred from MLB as you know and dabbles in the news perhaps sometimes inventing them

[Brodirt]

They all cheat. Move on and make sure your kids look to you as their hero, not to these over inflated cheaters.

[richmondesi]

I can't blame you for doing that. That stuff will mess you up. Still I'm curious, did you actually make it up the Big Leagues at all?

No, but I'm friends with several guys that did/still play


Paul,
Red Sox nation self righteous? I don't think so. Maybe MLB that taken so long to acknowledge and deal with the steroid issue one way or another.
Merloni was a replacement player and barred from MLB as you know and dabbles in the news perhaps sometimes inventing them

Ok. You show yourself to be totally lacking in objectivity. Red Sox fans have been totally self-righteous throughout this whole thing. MLB should have done more. It was commonly discussed that guys couldn't wait to get on the 40 man roster because then they could do whatever they wanted without worrying about getting caught. However, that doesn't excuse the behavior of fans accepting their guy's indiscretions while crucifying players on other teams for theirs.


They all cheat. Move on and make sure your kids look to you as their hero, not to these over inflated cheaters.

+1 :001_smile

[smoothjim]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

What's so funny?
That is, other than the self-righteous sportswriter-led PED witch hunt.
You can hit, or you can't. HGH, Roids, "PEDs" don't help you put bat on ball better, or even send it further.
There's about fifteen reasons for the superficial spike in offensive numbers the past ten years, and whichever vilified PED of the day is about sixteenth.

Why did Jose Canseco hit fewer homeruns while juicing? Mark McGwire hit 49 homers as a rail thin rookie in 1987? Why does no one ever focuses on the bums who end up on these hundred player using lists.

Hank Aaron's greatest five year home run output began when he was 35 years old. Look it up. Was he using?
The irony is, the one player whose performance in pursuit of a record was most externally enhanced the past forty years was Hank Aaron.

[richmondesi]

What's so funny?
That is, other than the self-righteous sportswriter-led PED witch hunt.
You can hit, or you can't. HGH, Roids, "PEDs" don't help you put bat on ball better, or even send it further.
There's about fifteen reasons for the superficial spike in offensive numbers the past ten years, and whichever vilified PED of the day is about sixteenth.

Why did Jose Canseco hit fewer homeruns while juicing? Mark McGwire hit 49 homers as a rail thin rookie in 1987? Why does no one ever focuses on the bums who end up on these hundred player using lists.

Hank Aaron's greatest five year home run output began when he was 35 years old. Look it up. Was he using?
The irony is, the one player whose performance in pursuit of a record was most externally enhanced the past forty years was Hank Aaron.

What's funny is that is an utterly absurd statement that I was hoping was a joke. I'm not going to rehash all of the data, but both anecdotally and scientifically there is zero support for that. I'll let some of the guys that have the energy to provide all of the references and data. It isn't worth my time. But for the record, I played and lived it, and I work in the medical field which is filled with physicians that love to opine on such matters. I've never heard any of them share your opinion.

Cheers :001_smile

[Confilo]

They all cheat. Move on and make sure your kids look to you as their hero, not to these over inflated cheaters.

Of course, you are totally right. I'm grateful my kids are grown up and doing well. It is Barber shop banter, better to discuss baseball than politics IMO
:wink:
Below is a review of Greener Grass : Cuba, Baseball and the United States.
Many of us who were born there brought our passion for beisbol here


Review Summary
While baseball is loved in America, the sport is revered in Cuba. Packed stadiums play host to fierce competition and a skill level that rivals the best American team. Greener Grass: Cuba, Baseball and the United States documents the historic 1999 swap when the Baltimore Orioles visited Havana and the Cuban national team came to the United States. The trade-off was reminiscent of pre-revolutionary times when Cubans populated American diamonds and the island served as a summer camp for professionals. Baseball has a long history in Cuba, with versions of the game being played since the 1800s. As the sport reached a popular peak in the 1950s, players like Rudolfo Fernandez earned their own American baseball cards. Famed manager Tommy Lasorda similarly remembers fanatic crowds as a member of the Cuban Professional League. The sport also serves as a filter for political and social differences as racial identity, democracy, and music become important issues separating the two countries. The one-hour program features interviews with Cuban exiles such as Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez who now plays for the New York Yankees. The program shows that when it comes to baseball, America and Cuba are more similar than different; passion and pride are heavy hitters on both sides of the water. ~ Sarah Ing, All Movie Guide

[Confilo]

As I go over these posts is good to know the passion for the National pastime is still running high. The sad part is that steroids are becoming part of it.
As for cheating it always been part of playing games, not that I condone it, just always comes up.

[smoothjim]

They all cheat. Move on and make sure your kids look to you as their hero, not to these over inflated cheaters.

How can you be cheating if you're using something that isn't banned, which was the case before 2003; or ultimately doesn't make a difference?

BTW, what does getting screened in 2003 have to do with what you're able to later do in 2004?



When it gets really funny is when these constipated politicians, who gerrymander their districts, rig campaign finance laws, horde their war chests, make sweetheart back-room deals, accept gifts and junkets while run blocking for lobbyists, and make policy targeting favored constituencies, all to enhance their own stature, sit there on their grandstanding bully pulpits and condemn subpoenaed dumb jocks for "cheating".

[Confilo]

How can you be cheating if you're using something that isn't banned, which was the case before 2003; or ultimately doesn't make a difference?

BTW, what does getting screened in 2003 have to do with what you're able to later do in 2004?



When it gets really funny is when these constipated politicians, who gerrymander their districts, rig campaign finance laws, horde their war chests, make sweetheart back-room deals, accept gifts and junkets while run blocking for lobbyists, and make policy targeting favored constituencies, all to enhance their own stature, sit there on their grandstanding bully pulpits and condemn subpoenaed dumb jocks for "cheating".

Good point:thumbup1:

[ClubmanRob]

How can you be cheating if you're using something that isn't banned, which was the case before 2003; or ultimately doesn't make a difference?

BTW, what does getting screened in 2003 have to do with what you're able to later do in 2004?



When it gets really funny is when these constipated politicians, who gerrymander their districts, rig campaign finance laws, horde their war chests, make sweetheart back-room deals, accept gifts and junkets while run blocking for lobbyists, and make policy targeting favored constituencies, all to enhance their own stature, sit there on their grandstanding bully pulpits and condemn subpoenaed dumb jocks for "cheating".

Steroid use in baseball has been illegal since 1991. It just wasn't under much scrutiny until 2003, when it was discovered that baseball players topped the 5% cap that was put into their contracts. Once that percentage was exceeded, the problem was finally acted on.

Regardless of the "legality" of it, steroid use has always been frowned upon in professional sports. It puts the players that use them at an unfair advantage, not to mention at a larger health risk. If you have to shoot amphetamines or wax the clear to play in the big leagues, then the playing field needs to be leveled. I too have friends that never "juiced" and I believe this helped contribute in some ways to them being passed over in the majors.

Either way, guys like Manny and Ortiz are a dime a dozen. Guys like Richmondesi are my heroes.

[mretzloff]

How can you be cheating if you're using something that isn't banned, which was the case before 2003; or ultimately doesn't make a difference?

BTW, what does getting screened in 2003 have to do with what you're able to later do in 2004?



When it gets really funny is when these constipated politicians, who gerrymander their districts, rig campaign finance laws, horde their war chests, make sweetheart back-room deals, accept gifts and junkets while run blocking for lobbyists, and make policy targeting favored constituencies, all to enhance their own stature, sit there on their grandstanding bully pulpits and condemn subpoenaed dumb jocks for "cheating".

Were you saying this same stuff when AROD was caught? I doubt it.

The thing is, Red Sox fans made sure to not let Bonds live down his steroid use or AROD live down his, nor his "hooker incident", yet they probably will keep cheering on their beloved "Big Papi".

It's funny that Fenway was full of people holding up asterisks signs when the Sox played the Giants last year and now Ortiz was caught.

[Confilo]

Were you saying this same stuff when AROD was caught? I doubt it.

The thing is, Red Sox fans made sure to not let Bonds live down his steroid use or AROD live down his, nor his "hooker incident", yet they probably will keep cheering on their beloved "Big Papi".

It's funny that Fenway was full of people holding up asterisks signs when the Sox played the Giants last year and now Ortiz was caught.

Let's not single out Red Sox fans. Bond was being jeered at other parks and so was Rodriguez.
Some stadiums are known for their traditions and the vocifoureness of their fans. Fenway is one of those. When the Sox play at Yankee stadium is the same in reverse, the only difference is this year, the Bombers have not been able to hold the lead and get suddenly quiet.:biggrin:

PS Let's not forget who gave Papi his nickname and when. It happened to backfire

[Brodirt]

How can you be cheating if you're using something that isn't banned, which was the case before 2003; or ultimately doesn't make a difference?

BTW, what does getting screened in 2003 have to do with what you're able to later do in 2004?



When it gets really funny is when these constipated politicians, who gerrymander their districts, rig campaign finance laws, horde their war chests, make sweetheart back-room deals, accept gifts and junkets while run blocking for lobbyists, and make policy targeting favored constituencies, all to enhance their own stature, sit there on their grandstanding bully pulpits and condemn subpoenaed dumb jocks for "cheating".

Steroids have been illegal in baseball since 1991. The testing policy is what came into effect in 2005 when the the Union finally caved to the overwhelming pressure to give in and save face. Do not be mistaken these guys cheated.


A year earlier Congress had raised penalties for possessing those and 25 other anabolics. But now the stuff violated baseball's rules, too. On June 7, 1991, commissioner Fay Vincent sent a memo to each team and the players union that stated: "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids." The seven-page document didn't cover random testing -- that had to be bargained with the union -- but it did outline treatment and penalties.


As for the timing of the findings....all you need to do is look at the bookends now of Manny Ramirez's career in drug trafficking...yes drug trafficking, because that is exactly what he was doing in at least 2003 and through and until this year. So, if you do not want to reach the conclusion that he, and Ortiz, were not using in that exact year because they weren't tested in that year...well, you are either very naive or such a raging fan that your vision has been clouded.

[Confilo]

Steroid use in baseball has been illegal since 1991. It just wasn't under much scrutiny until 2003, when it was discovered that baseball players topped the 5% cap that was put into their contracts. Once that percentage was exceeded, the problem was finally acted on.

Regardless of the "legality" of it, steroid use has always been frowned upon in professional sports. It puts the players that use them at an unfair advantage, not to mention at a larger health risk. If you have to shoot amphetamines or wax the clear to play in the big leagues, then the playing field needs to be leveled. I too have friends that never "juiced" and I believe this helped contribute in some ways to them being passed over in the majors.

Either way, guys like Manny and Ortiz are a dime a dozen. Guys like Richmondesi are my heroes.

Clubman,
The guys who play without artificial enhancements are the real McCoys. What is going to happen? Should it be "Amateur baseball" Should MLB punish harsh and swiftly when and if they get caught or should it be legalized and everyone use it, should the aluminum bats be allowed instead.
There is lots of money at stake and even bigger egos :confused:

[ClubmanRob]

Clubman,
The guys who play without artificial enhancements are the real McCoys. What is going to happen? Should it be "Amateur baseball" Should MLB punish harsh and swiftly when and if they get caught or should it be legalized and everyone use it, should the aluminum bats be allowed instead.
There is lots of money at stake and even bigger egos :confused:

If I'm reading your train of thought correctly, you're saying that players that don't juice, play like amateurs? I don't agree. What's more impressive, the guy that plays like a madman because he trained for the game his whole life? Or the guy that popped a few pills, shot some drugs, and made his way to the big leagues?

I think they should come down hard on steroid use in pro sports. At worst, we'll go back to having baseball superstars like Babe Ruth, who were fat, drunk and out of shape, but could still play the game like nobody's business.

[Confilo]

If I'm reading your train of thought correctly, you're saying that players that don't juice, play like amateurs? I don't agree. What's more impressive, the guy that plays like a madman because he trained for the game his whole life? Or the guy that popped a few pills, shot some drugs, and made his way to the big leagues?

I think they should come down hard on steroid use in pro sports. At worst, we'll go back to having baseball superstars like Babe Ruth, who were fat, drunk and out of shape, but could still play the game like nobody's business.

No, you misundestood me. I was thinking about what the options should be: Going back to amateur games?, there will be steroids, see the Olympics. Go heavy on the users? Why it is not happening? there are lots of suggestions about that. Change the equipment? See swimming.
The sad fact is the Genie is out of the bottle and putting it back now that is grown bigger will be tough.

[richmondesi]

Steroid use in baseball has been illegal since 1991. It just wasn't under much scrutiny until 2003, when it was discovered that baseball players topped the 5% cap that was put into their contracts. Once that percentage was exceeded, the problem was finally acted on.

Regardless of the "legality" of it, steroid use has always been frowned upon in professional sports. It puts the players that use them at an unfair advantage, not to mention at a larger health risk. If you have to shoot amphetamines or wax the clear to play in the big leagues, then the playing field needs to be leveled. I too have friends that never "juiced" and I believe this helped contribute in some ways to them being passed over in the majors.

Either way, guys like Manny and Ortiz are a dime a dozen. Guys like Richmondesi are my heroes.

Thanks, Buddy! :thumbup1:

[DS/B MCS]

What's more impressive, the guy that plays like a madman because he trained for the game his whole life? Or the guy that popped a few pills, shot some drugs, and made his way to the big leagues?

I think Baseball Sucks, but

If you are a professional athlete, you have trainied like a madman whether on the juice or not. You don't just pop a few pills, hit the needle, and make it as a professional athlete. It takes talent, hardwork, and luck to get you in the league...supplements just help keep you there. Everybody is looking for an edge, some of the guys are willing to look behind more rocks.

[mretzloff]

I think Baseball Sucks, but

If you are a professional athlete, you have trainied like a madman whether on the juice or not. You don't just pop a few pills, hit the needle, and make it as a professional athlete. It takes talent, hardwork, and luck to get you in the league...supplements just help keep you there. Everybody is looking for an edge, some of the guys are willing to look behind more rocks.

Ya, but c'mon, that doesn't justify steroids. That's like saying cheating on a test is fine because you're trying to get an edge.

[richmondesi]

I think Baseball Sucks, but

If you are a professional athlete, you have trainied like a madman whether on the juice or not. You don't just pop a few pills, hit the needle, and make it as a professional athlete. It takes talent, hardwork, and luck to get you in the league...supplements just help keep you there. Everybody is looking for an edge, some of the guys are willing to look behind more rocks.

With all due respect, you don't understand the game. I had a guy on my team that was a PRETTY good pitcher, he comes back from the offseason, and all of a sudden he went from being one of a gazillion right handed pitchers that throw 91-92 mph to hitting 101 on the gun... He freely admitted that he took roids in the offseason and he made it to the big leagues within a very short time... Stop with the they don't get you there stuff. They can, and they did for some guys. I can point out guys that I have first hand knowledge of that are in the big leagues now that have no business there except that they roided up.

This is how you get to the big leagues:

You are either marginally talented (for baseball players at that level) and dedicated like no other, learning how to be as consistent as a machine (David Eckstein is a good example), OR

You are overwhelmingly talented and naturally gifted (Alexis Rios is a good example)

You are marginally talented and take PEDs to get you over the top (I'm not naming names, but I could)

[uberlegit]

Who honestly cares anymore?

I didn't bat an eyelash when Ramirez went down, and I'm a Sox fan. Guess what? Professional athletes (professionals generally, really) do morally ambiguous things to get ahead.

It's like the overdramatic death in a movie -- dude keeps getting shot, like 12 times now, and it's the same screaming and flinching with every shot... eventually he's going to drop and nobody is going to care anymore, because it was overdue...

[Confilo]

Fenway fills up everynight and weekends there is a game at high prices for a ticket. Evidently lots of people care to watch the game.
To Manny, I said, good riddance.

[uberlegit]

Fenway fills up everynight and weekends there is a game at high prices for a ticket. Evidently lots of people care to watch the game.

But that's the problem, innit? Before the home run races of the late 90's it took dedication to be a baseball fan (especially the Sox). Now everyone's a stat-head, and it's because of inflated performance.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game, and I'm not even making a statement one way or another about steroids, it should really just come as no surprise anymore that pro ball players who perform at exceedingly high levels are juicing.

[Walter Sobchak]

who honestly cares anymore?

I didn't bat an eyelash when ramirez went down, and i'm a sox fan. Guess what? Professional athletes (professionals generally, really) do morally ambiguous things to get ahead.

It's like the overdramatic death in a movie -- dude keeps getting shot, like 12 times now, and it's the same screaming and flinching with every shot... Eventually he's going to drop and nobody is going to care anymore, because it was overdue...


huge +1

[richmondesi]

I know many of you won't buy this, but I know guys that played summer league ball with Pujols in college and he was an absolute beast. From the guys that know him that I've talked to, and everything else that I'm able to gather, he's clean. Seriously.

If I find out that he isn't at some point, I'll be totally done with caring about professional baseball.

[mretzloff]

Paul, are you still in contact with guys on the Blue Jays? Do you ever go and watch a game while sitting in the dugout? I think that's really cool that you're a former baseball player.

[Confilo]

Andrew,
Some people might go for the HR derby and then play the reality game of who is doing what and who is clean. Everybody is making money even the newscasters who fuel the fire.
There are always being statistics in baseball. Is it TV, the Market? Maybe just a bunch of excuses for the players to "become best" and be rewarded individually with a fat contract.

[uberlegit]

I know many of you won't buy this, but I know guys that played summer league ball with Pujols in college and he was an absolute beast. From the guys that know him that I've talked to, and everything else that I'm able to gather, he's clean. Seriously.

If I find out that he isn't at some point, I'll be totally done with caring about professional baseball.

I buy it. Some players juice. Some don't. (Most that perform at league-leading levels probably have.) Unfortunately, I've made that "done caring" comment about a thousand times for about a thousand players... Sosa anyone?

The thing is, I am done caring now, but I still love to watch a game of baseball... Of course I'll still have a special place in my heart for the guys that did it clean, but the guys that didn't? Well, they did what they thought they had to, and they entertained me, and they put up numbers. We need to stop thinking of these guys as superheroes and remember that they're people with jobs... the girl who lives next-door to me is really super talented at doing stained glass... is she any less of a person than a pro ball player?

[Confilo]

I know many of you won't buy this, but I know guys that played summer league ball with Pujols in college and he was an absolute beast. From the guys that know him that I've talked to, and everything else that I'm able to gather, he's clean. Seriously.

If I find out that he isn't at some point, I'll be totally done with caring about professional baseball.

I believe it. I don't judge people easily. The shame is also in the fact that truly right and talented people get dump with the rest because of the attittude of the times: "if he is that good he must be using"

[richmondesi]

Paul, are you still in contact with guys on the Blue Jays? Do you ever go and watch a game while sitting in the dugout? I think that's really cool that you're a former baseball player.

Not really. Most of the guys that I was close with got traded or aren't in the game anymore. I hung out with Alex Rios and Aaron Hill a little bit, but I hung with Brandon League a lot! He had incredible stuff. Only threw 2 seamers and the ball moved a foot in the upper 90s:eek: he was sick. I was also really good friends with David Murphy (Rangers) and Dave Bush (Brewers). Great guys!

[mretzloff]

Not really. Most of the guys that I was close with got traded or aren't in the game anymore. I hung out with Alex Rios and Aaron Hill a little bit, but I hung with Brandon League a lot! He had incredible stuff. Only threw 2 seamers and the ball moved a foot in the upper 90s:eek: he was sick. I was also really good friends with David Murphy (Rangers) and Dave Bush (Brewers). Great guys!

Hmm, cool. Thanks for sharing :smile:

[Brodirt]

I know many of you won't buy this, but I know guys that played summer league ball with Pujols in college and he was an absolute beast. From the guys that know him that I've talked to, and everything else that I'm able to gather, he's clean. Seriously.

If I find out that he isn't at some point, I'll be totally done with caring about professional baseball.

I'd be shocked if he isn't juicing!
http://www.pujolsfan.com/Albert-Pujols-Muscle-&-Fitness-cover-May-2007.jpg

[Confilo]

Not really. Most of the guys that I was close with got traded or aren't in the game anymore. I hung out with Alex Rios and Aaron Hill a little bit, but I hung with Brandon League a lot! He had incredible stuff. Only threw 2 seamers and the ball moved a foot in the upper 90s:eek: he was sick. I was also really good friends with David Murphy (Rangers) and Dave Bush (Brewers). Great guys!

Paul,
I'm sure you know you are one of the lucky ones, You got to be part of the dream of playing MLB, kept your integrity, friends and memories and still love the game.

[richmondesi]

Hmm, cool. Thanks for sharing :smile:

FWIW, Murphy wasn't in the Blue Jays organization. We played at Baylor together Kelly Shoppach was there too... He was the main guy in front of me and then he got drafter by the Sox and I took over the next year.

[richmondesi]

I'd be shocked if he isn't juicing!
http://www.pujolsfan.com/Albert-Pujols-Muscle-&-Fitness-cover-May-2007.jpg

I know... but you're jaded :biggrin:

[mretzloff]

FWIW, Murphy wasn't in the Blue Jays organization. We played at Baylor together Kelly Shoppach was there too... He was the main guy in front of me and then he got drafter by the Sox and I took over the next year.

Lucky for you, I guess. I have a friend who goes to Baylor.

[Confilo]

I'd be shocked if he isn't juicing!
http://www.pujolsfan.com/Albert-Pujols-Muscle-&-Fitness-cover-May-2007.jpg

That looks like A Roid :lol:

[richmondesi]

Pujols (http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/07/pujols-holds-hope-for-clean-sports-.html)

If you google: Pujols clean, you'll see some pretty interesting stuff.

[richmondesi]

Lucky for you, I guess. I have a friend who goes to Baylor.

It's a really great school. And on top of the education, there is a overwhelming abundance of attractive young (wealthy, mostly wholesome) girls looking for a good guy. We referred to them as being there for their "Mrs. Degree" .

I was already married when I got there, but it wasn't too bad of a scene to look at :biggrin:

[Brodirt]

Pujols (http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/07/pujols-holds-hope-for-clean-sports-.html)

If you google: Pujols clean, you'll see some pretty interesting stuff.

Rich, are you from Missouri by any chance?

[richmondesi]

Rich, are you from Missouri by any chance?

Nope, but I played there once :biggrin: It was the most brutal cold, I've ever experience in a baseball game.

[richmondesi]

Rich, are you from Missouri by any chance?

Also, I forgot to mention that I'm a Cubs fan:frown:

[TimmyBoston]

I for one and sick of all the Red Sox/Yankees trash talk that goes on here at B&B. I have been part of it in the past, and for that I'm sorry, but enough is enough. :thumbdown

[Kratos]

I'd be shocked if he isn't juicing!
http://www.pujolsfan.com/Albert-Pujols-Muscle-&-Fitness-cover-May-2007.jpg

Come on, Bro! Just because he's on the cover of Muscle & Fiction doesn't mean he's a juice weasel. He's 6'3" 230. That's not outrageous, or very hard to maintain without ergogenic assistance. If he say, gained 40 of that in 3 or 4 months, I'd say something was up.


I believe it. I don't judge people easily. The shame is also in the fact that truly right and talented people get dump with the rest because of the attittude of the times: "if he is that good he must be using"

Yeah, guilt by association's a bitch, isn't it? But I for one don't usually automatically lump everybody in. There are signs to look for, and there are always people on the inside who know, and talk. Pujols has passed 6 drug tests, so that looks good on him; if they were random, even better. As I mantioned in the TdF thread, if you know they're coming it's not hard to beat them.

[jazzman]

Just a couple of observations from a long-time baseball fan who hates the Red Sox and the Yankees almost equally:

MLB had many great and very good players before steroids were invented. The game can be played without them. So I don't buy any excuses from players or fans about a "need" for performance enhancing drugs.

All PEDs have always been illegal, regardless of MLB's rules. Federal felony, friends. No different from beating up the other team's pitcher before a game.

If you look at the stats and career paths of the usual suspects, you'll find some strange things that would be hard to explain without drugs. Big Papi's HR production before the second half of 2003? Brady Anderson's 50-HR season, which happened to be the last year of his contract and the season before he signed an amazingly lucrative deal? Barry Bonds's hat size? Mark McGuire's comeback? Roger Clemons pitching into old age?

And, finally, it's everyone's fault. Owners, players, trainers, doctors, and, especially, fans who demand HRs and other flashy performances. With all the money involved, it would be simple thing to test every player before every game and post the results on the internet. First offense, 50-game suspension. Second offense, lifetime ban.

[gollum83]

I for one and sick of all the Red Sox/Yankees trash talk that goes on here at B&B. I have been part of it in the past, and for that I'm sorry, but enough is enough. :thumbdown

Thank goodness! Here I was thinking I was the only one! :001_smile

[Walter Sobchak]

I have no problem with good natured trash talking, but it becomes too much when there's clear malice. Which, obviously and sadly, seems to be inevitable.

Can't we just enjoy the game and enjoy that we have some great rivalries in sports? I'm a Sox fan. I grew up going to Fenway. It's in my blood to loathe the Yanks, but in a fun, non-harm-wishing way. We should cherish the rivalry, it's a great one.

My office is in Southern CT now and I have a lot of fun being surrounded by Yanks fans and trading good natured barbs. Hell, I even met Thirdeye (Ray) a few days ago and took a shot about my Avatar! It should be all in good fun, let's try to remember that.

**Also, I never miss a chance to let Matt know how I feel about the Red Wings. So let me take this opportunity. Matt, Red Wings = BAH!

[Brodirt]

Come on, Bro! Just because he's on the cover of Muscle & Fiction doesn't mean he's a juice weasel. He's 6'3" 230. That's not outrageous, or very hard to maintain without ergogenic assistance. If he say, gained 40 of that in 3 or 4 months, I'd say something was up.



Yeah, guilt by association's a bitch, isn't it? But I for one don't usually automatically lump everybody in. There are signs to look for, and there are always people on the inside who know, and talk. Pujols has passed 6 drug tests, so that looks good on him; if they were random, even better. As I mantioned in the TdF thread, if you know they're coming it's not hard to beat them.

I just put that pic up for the irony of the subject and the headline above the pic of Pujols. My rationale for believing he is a cheater too is simply logical deduction.

[dwestenk]

... And, finally, it's everyone's fault. ... especially, fans who demand HRs and other flashy performances. ...
How exactly did/do fans make this demand??


... Can't we just enjoy the game ...
I thought that's what I've been doing. I grew up listening to Detroit Tigers games on the radio and about once a summer my dad would take us to Briggs stadium to actually see them play; Norm Cash, Dick McAuliffe, Hank Aguirre, Eddie Yost, Jim Bunning, Rocky Colavito, Al Kaline ... Then I watched my son play from grade school through college, keeping score (I have plenty of pieces of paper with my 'system' scratched on them), cheering for the team, enjoying the game. I still enjoy watching MLB on TV, but I'm not sure where I demanded home runs or flashy performances...

Just my 2¢

[DS/B MCS]

I had a guy on my team that was a PRETTY good pitcher, he comes back from the offseason, and all of a sudden he went from being one of a gazillion right handed pitchers that throw 91-92 mph to hitting 101 on the gun... He freely admitted that he took roids in the offseason and he made it to the big leagues within a very short time...

Wow, Big Time results for I'm guessing 2 cycles during the offseason. Now, I understand why they are so prevalent :ohmy:

[jazzman]

How exactly did/do fans make this demand??


I thought that's what I've been doing. I grew up listening to Detroit Tigers games on the radio and about once a summer my dad would take us to Briggs stadium to actually see them play; Norm Cash, Dick McAuliffe, Hank Aguirre, Eddie Yost, Jim Bunning, Rocky Colavito, Al Kaline ... Then I watched my son play from grade school through college, keeping score (I have plenty of pieces of paper with my 'system' scratched on them), cheering for the team, enjoying the game. I still enjoy watching MLB on TV, but I'm not sure where I demanded home runs or flashy performances...

Just my 2¢

For the most part, I'm not talking about fans who know how to keep score or enjoy a pitchers' duel. But the owners certainly notice when they sell more tickets and get higher TV ratings when McGwire and Sosa are breaking a 70-year-old record, or fans are buying posters of lead-off hitter Brady Anderson with his shirt off after a 50-HR season. Meanwhile, fans in Boston and New York seem to be unhappy whenever they don't win the World Series, and we're starting to see how many members of those teams used PEDs in this decade. The Texas Rangers and Baltimore Orioles haven't won many games during the Steroid Era, but is it any wonder that they have been hot beds of steroid use (Sosa, Palmero, Tejada, etc.)?

[Brodirt]

How exactly did/do fans make this demand??

Seriously?????

More HRs = More ticket sales and more merchandise sales.

[gollum83]

**Also, I never miss a chance to let Matt know how I feel about the Red Wings. So let me take this opportunity. Matt, Red Wings = BAH!

Just admit it. You're just jealous your team didn't make it to the Stanley Cup Finals. :tongue:

[Confilo]

[QUOTE=Walter Sobchak;1369389]I have no problem with good natured trash talking, but it becomes too much when there's clear malice. Which, obviously and sadly, seems to be inevitable.

Can't we just enjoy the game and enjoy that we have some great rivalries in sports? I'm a Sox fan. I grew up going to Fenway. It's in my blood to loathe the Yanks, but in a fun, non-harm-wishing way. We should cherish the rivalry, it's a great one.

My office is in Southern CT now and I have a lot of fun being surrounded by Yanks fans and trading good natured barbs. Hell, I even met Thirdeye (Ray) a few days ago and took a shot about my Avatar! It should be all in good fun, let's try to remember that.

I totally agreed with the above and frankly I think that this thread has plenty of sport trash talk directed at the teams, the players but I don't think at any moment it has been direspectful or trashing to any of the forumites participating.
It is just a game. I recently went to Baltimore and saw a game btwn the Sox and the O's. There were 5 of us, three were Red Sox fan wearing shirts and caps and 2 were O's fans sporting their teams accessories; the stadium was filled by fans from both teams and there was a lot of bantering and trash talk but it was never offensive of disrepectful. It was a great game and great time.
The night before the O's had their biggest comeback in history and I heard plenty of it and the Baltimore fans had reason to be proud.
We are grown up fans who shave their beards I'm sure we are capable of trashing each other teams in good nature without being disrespectful to each other personally.
As for the performance enhancement chemicals; it is a valid issue in our society worth it of discussion, if we sweep everytrhing under the rug, a speck of dust becomes a huge lump. :001_smile

[dwestenk]

Seriously?????

More HRs = More ticket sales and more merchandise sales.

Since your equations starts with HRs, do you believe that fans go to games to see HRs? If so, they miss the game, IMO. :frown:

I guess I was trying to point out that I'm a fan of baseball, not a fan of HRs and flashy performances.

[Confilo]

Since your equations starts with HRs, do you believe that fans go to games to see HRs? If so, they miss the game, IMO. :frown:

I guess I was trying to point out that I'm a fan of baseball, not a fan of HRs and flashy performances.

+1 with the above. Most fans go to enjoy the pitchers repertoire, the good plays, and all the myriads of things that can happen in 9 innings or more including errors and bad luck that give baseball its similarity with life played as a game.
Then, there are some who wants to speed it up and unfortunately is not just some of the fans.

Unfortunately the name behind this thread David Ortiz, admitted to using perf. enhancers. It was sad, but no excuse. Now we know one of the causes of his slump. The Boston media like Boston fans are tough and demanding and had not been easy on it.:frown:

[Kratos]

Wow, Big Time results for I'm guessing 2 cycles during the offseason. Now, I understand why they are so prevalent :ohmy:

And why saying anabolic steroids and other PED's don't make a difference is ridiculous. They don't give you ability, but they do a lot for the ability you already have. Faster and stronger with good technique is almost always going to take you further than good technique. Most people have no inkling of what they do for your recovery ability. Also, though many natural guys don't want to admit it, they give you a drive to train like you never had before. I have observed the changes in people. It's like nitrous for your body. Lots of side items, though.

[gollum83]

Since your equations starts with HRs, do you believe that fans go to games to see HRs? If so, they miss the game, IMO. :frown:

I guess I was trying to point out that I'm a fan of baseball, not a fan of HRs and flashy performances.

Well I don't think there's anything wrong with the occasional home run or grand slam, but you're right. There's so much more to the game than swinging for the fences. It's just as fun, if not more fun, to watch your team win with good pitching, squeeze plays, stolen bases and the like.

Sadly though you have this perception that long-ball and home runs is what draws in the big crowds. Whether or not it's true I don't know, but the perception is there and the league and its players fall for it. But it's hardly a baseball-only phenomenon. I mean take my other favorite sport, hockey, for example. The NHL modified the rules a few seasons ago to help increase scoring supposedly because that's what draws in new fans. If you ask me though there's nothing quiet as exciting as watching two teams go at it in the third period of a scoreless game.

[Confilo]

And why saying anabolic steroids and other PED's don't make a difference is ridiculous. They don't give you ability, but they do a lot for the ability you already have. Faster and stronger with good technique is almost always going to take you further than good technique. Most people have no inkling of what they do for your recovery ability. Also, though many natural guys don't want to admit it, they give you a drive to train like you never had before. I have observed the changes in people. It's like nitrous for your body. Lots of side items, though.

This is true, and any MD will confirm it. Prhaps that is why the Genie is not going back into the bottle.

[TstebinsB]

This thread is still going! :eek:

[Brodirt]

Since your equations starts with HRs, do you believe that fans go to games to see HRs? If so, they miss the game, IMO. :frown:

I guess I was trying to point out that I'm a fan of baseball, not a fan of HRs and flashy performances.

Do you think it is a coincidence that revenues have blown through the roof during the "steroid era?" Myself, I prefer a 2 hour 15 min. 2-1 pitchers dual, but I think the vast majority of fans go for the HRs. Whenever I have this discussion I always come back to the spectacle of the Roman coliseum and how succinctly it was illustrated in Gladiator when Maximus after laying down the slaughter cynically mocks the crowd with "are you not entertained?" I can't help but see McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Palmiero, Ramirez, etc. thinking exactly that as their pumped up bodies cross the plate. In fact, Manny with his many salutes might be doing just that!

http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/blog/images/2007/10/17/manny_ramirez_impressed_with_himsel.jpg
http://www.bluffton.edu/courses/TLC/GundyJ/Kari/alignment/Gladiator.jpg
Are you not entertained?

[Walter Sobchak]

Do you think it is a coincidence that revenues have blown through the roof during the "steroid era?" Myself, I prefer a 2 hour 15 min. 2-1 pitchers dual, but I think the vast majority of fans go for the HRs. Whenever I have this discussion I always come back to the spectacle of the Roman coliseum and how succinctly it was illustrated in Gladiator when Maximus after laying down the slaughter cynically mocks the crowd with "are you not entertained?" I can't help but see McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Palmiero, Ramirez, etc. thinking exactly that as their pumped up bodies cross the plate. In fact, Manny with his many salutes might be doing just that!

http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/blog/images/2007/10/17/manny_ramirez_impressed_with_himsel.jpg
http://www.bluffton.edu/courses/TLC/GundyJ/Kari/alignment/Gladiator.jpg
Are you not entertained?

Remember the ad..."CHICKS DIG THE LONG BALL"?




I totally agreed with the above and frankly I think that this thread has plenty of sport trash talk directed at the teams, the players but I don't think at any moment it has been direspectful or trashing to any of the forumites participating.
It is just a game. I recently went to Baltimore and saw a game btwn the Sox and the O's. There were 5 of us, three were Red Sox fan wearing shirts and caps and 2 were O's fans sporting their teams accessories; the stadium was filled by fans from both teams and there was a lot of bantering and trash talk but it was never offensive of disrepectful. It was a great game and great time.
The night before the O's had their biggest comeback in history and I heard plenty of it and the Baltimore fans had reason to be proud.
We are grown up fans who shave their beards I'm sure we are capable of trashing each other teams in good nature without being disrespectful to each other personally.
As for the performance enhancement chemicals; it is a valid issue in our society worth it of discussion, if we sweep everytrhing under the rug, a speck of dust becomes a huge lump. :001_smile

Agreed. I'm definitely not trying to call anyone to task on this thread. I was speaking in response to TimmyBoston's post about it getting to be too much. Just trying to remind everyone that it's good form to keep it all in fun.

[TimmyBoston]

Agreed. I'm definitely not trying to call anyone to task on this thread. I was speaking in response to TimmyBoston's post about it getting to be too much.

I was calling everyone out (myself included). This never ending debate has grown tired and silly.

[Confilo]

I was calling everyone out (myself included). This never ending debate has grown tired and silly.

Absolutely, but aren't those the kind of debates (the never ending kind) going on in the neighborhood barbershop?
Timmy, you are probably aware that you share your code name with a city where everyone thinks he or she either owns the Sox or manages the team and to good naturally trashing the Yankees (no matter their standing) and sometimes the Rays (depending on their standing ) is considered a sport. :cool:

[mmack66]

I've heard that this guy is a big juicer as well-

http://knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/e/ee/Jack_LaLanne_publicity_shot.jpg

[Kratos]

I've heard that this guy is a big juicer as well-


Oh, yeah, that's the Juice King! But the juice he's on doesn't require PCT.

[Walter Sobchak]

I've heard that this guy is a big juicer as well-

http://knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/e/ee/Jack_LaLanne_publicity_shot.jpg

:lol::lol:

[Confilo]

I've heard that this guy is a big juicer as well-

http://knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/e/ee/Jack_LaLanne_publicity_shot.jpg


:lol::lol:

I wanna use what he is using :lol:

[Confilo]

From Bob Ryan, The Boston Globe


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2009/08/03/time_to_inject_baseball_back_into_the_discussion/

[Brodirt]

From Bob Ryan, The Boston Globe


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2009/08/03/time_to_inject_baseball_back_into_the_discussion/

Is there an irony that now, after Manny and Papi, and not then after Arod and other Yankees, that a Globe reporter says let out all the names and lets get back to baseball? I think not! I think its as fine an example of hypocrisy that I have ever seen.

By the way...I hate the Sox and the Yankees.

[SRock]

So both Manny and Ortiz are on the 2003 list of players who tested positive for PEDs. I guess we won't be hearing any more A-Roid chants in Fenway Park. :wink: It isn't news to most of you but to a Yankees fan, the Boston Roid Sox has a nice ring to it.

'Roid Sox, I love it!

[Confilo]

Is there an irony that now, after Manny and Papi, and not then after Arod and other Yankees, that a Globe reporter says let out all the names and lets get back to baseball? I think not! I think its as fine an example of hypocrisy that I have ever seen.

By the way...I hate the Sox and the Yankees.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2009/08/03/time_to_inject_baseball_back_into_the_discussion/?comments=all#addComm

Brodirt, You can use the above link to comment in the article. Did you read the whole thing?

[Confilo]

'Roid Sox, I love it!

SlagleRock,
A fan sign at Fenway said: "Papi you are not so BIG anymore". Red Sox fan are the toughest to play for, we love our team but when they are not up to par we let them know... on the other hand a little further South after they paid tons of money and are stuck with what they get, the players still can do no wrong. :wink:

[Brodirt]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2009/08/03/time_to_inject_baseball_back_into_the_discussion/?comments=all#addComm

Brodirt, You can use the above link to comment in the article. Did you read the whole thing?

I read the article, not the comments. Are you suggesting that I didn't get it, or that my point about hypocrisy is wrong? Just so, I read it again and saw the same thing. Bob Ryan is whining about not letting all the players names out, that they should (now, that his precious title has been sullied, so that all the other folks have their titles sullied too) so that we can get over what the past was and onto the current...a current where the Sox are winning and Manny is doping for LA, not Boston. Hypocrisy!

[Confilo]

I read the article, not the comments. Are you suggesting that I didn't get it, or that my point about hypocrisy is wrong? Just so, I read it again and saw the same thing. Bob Ryan is whining about not letting all the players names out, that they should (now, that his precious title has been sullied, so that all the other folks have their titles sullied too) so that we can get over what the past was and onto the current...a current where the Sox are winning and Manny is doping for LA, not Boston. Hypocrisy!

I was not suggesting anything, I don't think Ryan was whining. Let me tell you the press here is tough with the Red Sox. Do you mind me asking if there is a baseball team do you like? You stated you hated both the Yankees and the Red Sox and well, hate is a strong word unless is used as part of the rivalry. Whatever the past, we are moving forward; hopefully for us, the pennant and then the WS; without Manny and maybe Papito (little papi)

[Brodirt]

I was not suggesting anything, I don't think Ryan was whining. Let me tell you the press here is tough with the Red Sox. Do you mind me asking if there is a baseball team do you like? You stated you hated both the Yankees and the Red Sox and well, hate is a strong word unless is used as part of the rivalry. Whatever the past, we are moving forward; hopefully for us, the pennant and then the WS; without Manny and maybe Papito (little papi)

I'm a Mets fan...a bunch of cheaters too. As for moving on...you still have juicers on the team, as does every other team. There is no moving on. The sport is either tainted or you have to realize that it doesn't matter what they use because, after all, it's just entertainment. I'm ok with it either way. The tit for tatting going on now though with one team/fan base/home town press mocking the other is just ridiculous...they all cheat. If you want to move on do so with that out in the open.

I hate the Yankees and Red Sox both because of the holier than thou attitude taken by their fans. Its like you are deified when you put on pin stripes and, conversely, you are are a lovable loser able to overcome all odds stacked against you when you become a Red Sock. The irony is that the Yankees view themselves as the personification of all things great and the Sox view them as "the evil empire." Whereas the Yankees view the Sox as a bunch of low class dirtbags and the Sox seem to like it. Go figure. However you slice it Yankees Stadium is not entered into through the pearly gates and Fenway Park isn't the Roman Coliseum.

[Monkeydad]

'Roid Sox, I love it!

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q85/ruddbuilder/Roid-Sox-logo.jpg

[Confilo]

Dont show up it to Buster, he won't like it