Badger & Blade

Frankonian Hone

Wed, 09 Feb 2011 10:10:11 -0700

by: Harvitz81

Description: Some of you may remember that I had a post awhile ago wondering about the Frankonian hone available from Olivia Seife's website: [url]http://www.olivia-seife.de/shop/hwherren/steine.html[/url] I was intrigued that you could buy a finisher there (Frankonian) that was described to be used after an escher. I debated on this hone for some time and after selling off some of my other HAD stones I had some money burning a hole in my pocket that just HAD to be used on an Oozuku from Maxim and the Frankonian from Olivia's site. I got the stone in about a week after ordering, which given shipment from Germany especially at the end of last year was impressive. I held off on reviewing this for awhile as it is basically not discussed on these forums and I wanted to get a lot of experience with this before throwing in my 2 cents. Since I'm constantly restoring or cleaning up straights from my pile, I have what seems like an endless supply of razors to practice on. I've now finished 10 razors on this hone and thought it would be a good time to post my initial impressions. The stone itself came to me as a 5x2.75" barber sized hone. It is a somewhat dark brown to black colored stone. Lapping this stone was a PITA! Whereas Eschers are really soft and quite easy to lap, this stone was hard (lapping terms) and really took me awhile to get it flat. The slurry produced from the stone is also a brown color. So while this stone hails from and is mined in Germany, it definitely is not a new Thuringian or a stone of those likes. For honing I progressed all my razors through the dilucot method and then went to the Frankonian. The stone itself comes with a small slurry stone, but I found this useless to raise a slurry and I switched to my tiny DMT 325 plate for slurry raising. I used this very similar to how I use an escher, which is to raise a slurry and do about 10-15 x-strokes and then go through 4-5 dilutions to just water. On water I would do 30-50 x-strokes for the final finish. This stone definitely is just a finisher/polisher as I observed no metal removal or darkening of the slurry ever. Now rating an edge is always very subjective. I can get a BBS shave from every finisher I'm experienced with (coti, escher, charnley). What matters to me is the relatively sharpness of the edge for shaving, which I rate as to how long the shave lasts to where I can feel appreciable stubble. The second parameter is the smoothness of the shave. Coticule edges are very smooth for me, but I usually can feel appreciable stubble 10-12 hours post shave. An escher edge is not quite as smooth (though pretty smooth still) and stubble usually comes in the 12-15 hour range. Charnleys are less smooth than an escher when finished on oil and last similarly to an escher edge. On water these things are crisp and not anything I personally like to shave off of (In short CF's are overrated IMO, so don't be spending big bucks on them). Now, all that said - how does the Frankonian stack up? The first razor I finished on it was a W&B near wedge that was totally trashed before I got around to restoring it. The shave itself was VERY smooth (coticule smooth) and I seemed to noticed a beyond BBS shave if there is such a thing. I would say 16 hours post shave is when I felt noticeable stubble. I was very impressed. I proceeded to use it on finishing other Razors from full hollows to near wedges. Of the 10 I finished with, I would say that 8 of them all gave me results like above. The other 2 that didn't I think were just not progressed well on the dilucot before going to the Frankonian. Now, you might be asking yourself how do I know it wasn't just a coticule edge I was shaving with and the Frankonian was doing nothing? This is a fair point and all I can say to this is that I hone everything using the dilucot method. I'm very familiar with the edges off coticules. I'm also very familiar with an escher edge coming off these and also a CF edge. In each case I can tell subtle differences in edge sharpness and smoothness. So based on these I feel that I can honestly say that the Frankonian gives great results and is now neck and neck with my escher as to my preferred edge. OK, so what do I make of the claim on Olivia's site to use the stone after an escher? I haven't done this and feel that it would be a waste of time. To me they are very similar finishers and I would say the Frankonian could be used in place of an escher not after it. Basically it is just another finisher in my book. In summary, The frankonian is on the pricier side of hones (Around $165-170 shipped) and that would be a good amount of money to shell out for something that is really not discussed on these forums. As everything, this is a natural stone and I'm sure there are variations amongst them. I believe I received a very good one that rivals my escher for finishing. I can say this though, for the price that barber sized eschers are bringing these days on eBay ($450+), I would say that if you are interested in seeing what those are all about (eschers), but don't want to shell out that kind of money - then I would recommend the Frankonian as an alternative. Or also look for vintage celebrated water hones (thuringians), as they are much cheaper and just as good a finisher. ***Disclaimer*** Do not blame me for any HAD purchases resulting from this post. If you already own a vintage Thuringian or escher, then this stone will be nothing new to you (again very subtle differences between the edges with the frankonian being a tad more smooth on my face). If you are aching to try an escher and don't want to pay those prices, then I would look this stone up.

3M aluminum oxide lapping films

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:24:14 -0700

by: Seraphim

Description: 3M aluminum oxide lapping films. [IMG]http://badgerandblade.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42496&stc=1&d=1236616873[/IMG] I've long been a fan of lapping film, as it was the first "hone" I ever used. They can be mounted on a thick piece of glass or a precision granite plate. the flatter and smoother the substrate, the better the results you will get. The films are available in a variety of grits. from heavy-duty 12um, 5um (black), 3um (grayish), 1um (green, my favorite finisher), to super-fine finishing 0.3um (white). It comes in 9x13" sheets, which I can then cut down to four 3 1/4" x 9" honing sheets as pictured above. They cut through pretty much any steel with ease. Carbon, stainless, you name it, it will hone it. It also has a very nice feel to it, very velvety. The downside? The downside is that the stuff wears out pretty quick. You can get maybe a solid 6 razors out of a film, with it loosing it's bite over that period. It will still be working, but not nearly as aggresively as it did to begin with. This can result in a smoother finish for a given grit, but will also require many more passes. I have never actually tested to see how long I could go with a sheet before it was completely "shot", as I choose to get a fresh one to know what I'm dealing with, so 6 razors a film is an estimate of reliable use, I'm sure it could be pushed further than that. Available at Japanese Woodworker, or Thorlabs.com, amongst other places. Anyhow, I like the stuff!

Naniwa Super Stones

Tue, 05 May 2009 14:50:49 -0600

by: FloppyShoes

Description: The following review is based on my experiences with the 1000 and 12000 grit stones in their line honing approximately 40 razors with them encorporated in the following sequence: [LIST=1] [*]Norton 325 grit diamond hone [*][B]Naniwa 1000[/B] [*]Norton 4000 [*]Norton 8000 [*][B]Naniwa 12000[/B] [*]Nakayama Maruichi Stone [/LIST] Both the 1000 and 12000 required lapping before use. Neither needs to be soaked before use, but I find the 12000 to be more thirsty and soaking helps this. These stones come set in a plastic base with rubber feet, making them very stable. The 1000 Grit was very nice. It cuts reasonably fast and very evenly. It is not very porous and wears slowly, yet does not clog appreciably, even after a dozen razors. The feedback is a little muted for my liking, but I can live with it at this grit level. 1k hones can be found from a number of manufacturers, but this one is particularly well suited to razor honing. The 12000 is probably the most effective hone in this grit range I have tried to date (I've tried a good half dozen hones in this range including the spyderco UF, Chinese 12k, Coticule, Escher and barber hones) It cuts fast and gives good feedback. It feels softer than one wood expect for a hone of this grit, but wears slowly. Forty razors later it has not needed lapping. The scratch pattern under 500x magnification is fine and even. You could easily finish honing on the 12k and simply strop it to finish it off. Honestly I'm not sure what else to say about these hones. I would recommend them to those who are looking for good solid set of hones or to anyone wanter to expand their collection. I still feel that the Norton 4k/8k would be a better deal than buying the seperate Naniwa equivalents, but below 4k and above 8k you're getting good performance.

Escher Water Hone....

Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:02:22 -0700

by: joel

Description: [IMG]http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9769[/IMG] Escher water hones are known far and wide by straight razor shavers as being one of the, if not THE finest sharpening stone for straight razors. Just like a Belgian Coticule, these are natural stones, which come with a "slurry stone" or small hunk of hone (made of the same natural stone as the escher) to rub against the wet hone to create a milky, abrasive slurry. These stones can be used with - or without slurry. Basically this allows 2 modes - mode 1, with slurry, which will cut much faster and more aggressively, and mode 2, without slurry, which will cut slower and form a finer edge. While a Belgian Coticule is often around 8K grit, Eschers tend to be around 10-12K grit, so it provides a finer level of polish. [IMG]http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9127[/IMG] So where do you get an Escher? Well... that's sort of the problem, and to a large extent why there is such a cost associated with them. They are quite difficult to find, and depending on the grade of the stone (IE Blue-Green or Yellow-Green) they can be absurdly expensive... sometimes more than a custom, damascus straight razor. You can also often find new, or new old stock Thuringian water hones, which are essentially the same thing, yet at a much lower cost. Even these typically (for a decent size stone) are close to, or over $100, so by no means is this an inexpensive stone. [IMG]http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9283[/IMG] Overall these stones are quite nice, and like Belgian Coticules are a real hoot to use - but I just don't think they're worth the hefty price tag. Personally I feel a [URL="http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29384"]Chinese 12K[/URL] or a Spyderco Ultra fine work every bit as good, and are significantly less expensive stones. If you are a "hone junkie" I certainly would suggest picking one up, but if you're merely looking for results, there better and less expensive options. :smile: TO DISCUSS THIS REVIEW, PLEASE SEE [URL="http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?p=372047#post372047"]THIS[/URL] THREAD! Enjoy!

Norton 4000/8000 Combo Stone...

Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:11:39 -0700

by: joel

Description: [IMG]http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9185[/IMG] Norton 4K/8K This is the most commonly used, discussed and recommended straight razor hone. It is a man made hone � which is manufactured by Norton Abrasives, and created by taking abrasive powder, and creating �stone� by combining the powder with a binding agent. In layman�s terms � think of it like putting sand in a puddle of glue, and waiting for it to dry � of course Norton has this down to a science, and my example was extremely primitive, but you get the point. These stones come in 2 sizes, and the one in this particular review is 8� X 3� by 1�. The white side of the 4/8K is 4000 grit, and made in Italy, the yellow side of the hone is 8000 grit and made in the USA. As a �water stone� it uses water as a lubricant, and as a means to keep swarth (or metal deposits) from rendering the hone ineffective. [IMG]http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9143[/IMG] Pro�s 1.) This hone has 2 ideal grits for straight razors. 2.) This hone cuts relatively quickly � which is optimal for establishing an edge in a reasonable amount of time. 3.) Due to the size/width of the hone, you can keep the entire spine/edge on the hone at once, so you do not have to hone in the �X� pattern. 4.) These hones offer a good value, as it is 2 grits in one hone. [IMG]http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9159[/IMG] Con�s 1.) Hone needs to be soaked for 15 minutes prior to use. 2.) This hone will need to be lapped periodically. 3.) This hone is somewhat fragile� if you drop it � it�ll shatter. 4.) This is a relatively large/heavy hone, which can make it a little cumbersome for those who prefer to hold the hone in the palm of their hand (like myself) when honing. [IMG]http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9236[/IMG] Overall: I feel this is a superlative hone, and there is the greatest amount of information on it's use RE: Straight razors. Personally - I feel you will still need a finishing hone after using the 8K side, as it's 8K side isn't as fine a grit as say a Shapton 8K or a Kitayama 8K, it's really more like a 6K, so it can/will put a nice shave ready edge on a razor, but to get the most out of your razor, you'll need a finer stone. TO DISCUSS THIS REVIEW, PLEASE SEE [URL="http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?p=357712#post357712"]THIS[/URL] THREAD!

Chinese 12K - Natural Stone...

Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:20:23 -0700

by: joel

Description: [IMG]http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9197[/IMG] Chinese 12K This is a stone I am quite fond of� and it always surprises me just how well it works, and for such a bargain bin price. In fact, I am ashamed to admit, I wrote the stone off by and large due to them being so inexpensive � I just assumed they were nothing superlative to speak of� boy was I wrong. In my opinion, if you want a natural finishing hone � look no further than the Chinese 12K. These natural water stones are EXCEPTIONALLY hard stones, almost ceramic like, and are quarried in the Guangxi province of China. While a �water stone� and while they recommend soaking the stone, I find it unnecessary � and personally I get superb results merely wetting the stone, and honing away. This stone cuts very, very, VERY slowly. I mean at least 50, usually 100 passes as a finishing. While it does take awhile to get that buttery smooth edge, once you�re there � at least in my opinion, it is one of the nicest finishing hones and for a big hone (these are 8� X 2-3/4� X 1-1/4�) and a solid hone (these aren�t mounted to anything � these are all natural, all 12K honing material, and all useful/usable) � these are an absolute steal for the paltry sum of $30 [URL="http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=4920"]here[/URL]! These stones do need to be flattened however, and they are incredibly hard � so make sure you have a diamond plate, and some patience, as it�ll take some time to lap this sucker! [IMG]http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9290[/IMG] Pro�s 1.) Amazing deal, as they are inexpensive, readily available, large and all natural. A Natural Japanese Waterstone of this efficacy would cost thousands of dollars. 2.) Slow cutting� very hard to over hone, and works great for razors that �microchip� with faster cutting hones. 3.) These hones work exceptionally well, and since they are so hard after an initial lapping, you might not need to lap it ever again. 4.) These hones do not need to be soaked prior to use. [IMG]http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9300[/IMG] Con�s 1.) Very slow cutting � can be time consuming. 2.) Very hard � can take a long time to lap. 3.) These hones offer very little �feedback� and feel as if you are running your razor across smooth glass. 4.) Somewhat boring to use. TO DISCUSS THIS REVIEW - PLEASE SEE [URL="http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?p=357669#post357669"]THIS THREAD[/URL]!

Kitayama 8K water stone

Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:24:35 -0600

by: ouch

Description: This is one nice big slab of sharpening stone- 8x3x1 on a wooden base. Why wood? It may look traditional, but plastic is a better choice for something that gets soaked in water (this stone only needs to soak a minute or two). The Kitayama (North mountain) is sometimes advertised at 12K, but it's an 8K. It's one of the best polish stones available, and puts on a beautiful shine. As nice as the Naniwa 10K? It's a toss up for me. One of the things I enjoy most about this stone is the feedback- it's not as hard as the equivalent Shaptons, and gives a good feel for the process. Simple to lap, too, and comes with its own imitation nagura stone. It ain't cheap, at $70-90, but it's a good value and less expensive than some of its direct competition. All in all, it will provide many years of service, and knives that sparkle like the Nile.

Carborundum Hone No. 101A

Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:25:48 -0600

by: Steerpike

Description: This is a hone I got on behalf of a friend, for whom I'm gathering the tools to start straight razor shaving. Didn't cost me much (ebay!) but postage from America took a while. It's an excellent quality piece of kit- the carborundum company was always well respected in their time as a supplier of the finest quality abrasives. It was a bit grubby, but the dirt cleaned off when I lapped it, leaving a lovely smooth honing surface. It is quite a hard grit, so lapping won't be required for years with normal use. The grit is perfectly even, and the texture consistent throughout. Performance- I put as good an edge on a razor with this hone as I have with the Exide, I estimate the grit to be something like 6-7K, but can't be quite sure. It puts a lovely smooth shaving edge on the razor with no effort using lather to lubricate. Only downside is there is no coarser side, so it isn't so versatile as the Exide hone. However it cuts quite fast, (faster than the fine side of the Exide) so used with no lubricant and a little pressure, minor blemishes could be honed out of a full hollow razor without much trouble. I have to give it 10 for durability- it's still going strong after all these years, and doesn't look too delicate. The box is excellent, and quite thick, pleanty enough to protect it. Why can't packaging look like this now? I understand that the different number Carborundum Hones (101, 102, 103) were made to slightly different recipes, but all have the same grit. Perhaps somebody who has used several could comment on any differences in performance? Here's the pictures: [ATTACH]8506[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]8505[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]8507[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]8508[/ATTACH]

Exide Combination Razor Hone

Wed, 30 May 2007 08:54:18 -0600

by: Steerpike

Description: The Exide combo is an excellent hone, it does the job quickly and well, and is a breeze to use. I'd recommend it to a beginner over the waterstones, as it is easier to use, much less expensive, and compact. The hone is grey and glittery on the coarser side, and glossy black on the other. I'd estimate the coarse side something like 3-4K in waterstone grit terms. The black side is very smooth, maybe 6-8K, (just my subjective judgement based on the scratch pattern etc), but used with lather, and a light touch, I am getting a better edge off this than my 10K waterstone, which makes a more polished scratch pattern. The coarse side cuts fairly fast used dry, but taking out a nick on anything other than a really hollow blade may be a bit time consuming. For just maintaining blades though, it's great, and if I were to damage one, no doubt a rainy day could be passed sorting it out on this stone, with good results. You'd just have to use it dry, and a bit more pressure, maybe put the hone on a worksurface rather than having it on your hand. To use it, lay it on the palm of your hand, apply a thin coating of lather, and away you go! The size is perfect, it makes you do those diagonal, sweeping strokes, which I'm starting to find really do make the best edge. I can use straight strokes on my big waterstone, but the edge is not so satisfactory, and overhoning seems to develop far sooner. With lather, the suction effect of a nearly sharp blade is greater, so you know when to stop. When suction develops, it holds the blade flat by itself, so you can do the lightest possible strokes, with the lather doing the work of keeping the blade flat. This results in a wonderfully sharp, consistent edge, without the trouble I've experienced on waterstones that the blade "floats" on the water if you use no pressure. The hone took a while to lapp flat, so it's quite a lot harder than a waterstone. This means much less maintenance, also I don't need to soak it. The lather keeps the hone perfectly clean as you go- no need to scrub it with the nagura stone as there is with a waterstone- swarf floats off in the lather and never gets a chance to get embedded in the hone. I gave it 10 for packaging, because it arrived well wrapped, and I'm pleased with the box I made from cardboard and paper! All in all, a perfect tool for the job. Photos- Home made box- mazing what you can do with cardboard and paper! (Or did I watch Blue Peter too many times...): [ATTACH]8459[/ATTACH] Dark side, for finishing: [ATTACH]8461[/ATTACH] Coarser side: [ATTACH]8462[/ATTACH] Hopefully this gives an idea of how big it is- I was surprised the barber hones are so small. Having used them though, it makes perfect sense: [ATTACH]8463[/ATTACH]

Ice Bear Japanese polishing stone (10K)

Tue, 15 May 2007 05:46:08 -0600

by: Steerpike

Description: I had high hopes for this stone, also from Axminster tools ([url]www.axminster.co.uk[/url]) but is hasn't really fulfilled them. It's a broad stone, over 3", so I thought it would be great, no need to do those diagonal strokes. However, I find that the diagonal strokes are the way to achieve the best edge really easily, so this is no benefit at all. When I get a stone, I expect to lap it before use, that's normal, but this one was convex, rather tha concave. That made lapping it down to a flat surface very tricky, as it tended to "rock" while I was lapping it, and make it worse. A steady hand and patience was required. And swearing. It annoys me having to fill it with water, just to give a blade a few strokes to refresh the edge. I also find it challenging to put a good edge on a razor with this, for a few reasons. Firstly, you never do get a "mirror polished" edge- the scratch pattern is visible, and looks if anything, coarser than that you see on a chisel that just came off a transluscent Arkansas. The edge doesn't seem an awful lot more polished than that given by the 6K waterstone, but it is a tad bit sharper, if you use it carefully. The other problem is that it is hard to do a really light stroke without the blade seeming to "float" on the tiny ammount of water on the surface, and not make contact with the stone at all. Some pressure seems necessary at all times, making it difficult to achieve that perfect edge. It comes with a Nagura stone, which is REALLY good- use it to clean the stone, under a running tap, it comes up like new. Don't use it to make slurry- I tried this after reading about it on a knife forum. It is seriously counterproductive, and I never managed to achieve a good edge with slurry. All in all, It's not that great- you can hone a razor to a decent edge on it, but it is tricky, and quite inconvenient to use. It's also quite costly (�41.48), although cheaper than all the other waterstones I came across in my search.

King Combination Waterstone 1K/6K

Tue, 15 May 2007 05:28:00 -0600

by: Steerpike

Description: I got this from axminster tools in the Uk ([url]www.axminster.co.uk[/url]) as the Norton Combo everyone raves about was just going to be unreasonably expensive to get in the UK. It does the job excellently on an old razor that needs a bit of metal taken off- the 1K side takes it off fast, but does not seem too rough. The 6K side will put a bit of a polish on the edge, but this may take a while after the 1K, especially if honing up a chunky wedge- be prepared to lap the stone DURING use a few times, to prevent ovalling (hence low marks for durability- it is a waterstone, and as such wears very fast). I find the rate of wear very annoying- you basically need to lap it after each use, to be sure of a good honing surface. It is quite easy to lap though. If you get this, I reccomend getting the artificial Nagura stone for use on the 6K side- not to build slurry, I tried that and found it counter-productive, but to clean it- run it under the tap and give it a quick scrub with the Nagura, and it will be clean and fresh as new. I like this feature of it a lot- very different from an oilstone, which is a pain in the arse to clean when it starts to "glaze". There isn't much stone here, for a fast wearing stone, but for razors, it should last for ages unless you are repairing abused razors every day. A razor can come off the 6K side shaving sharp, but not REALLY sharp, nor particularly smooth. Having to fill it with water isn't to annoying for this stone- it only comes out if I bought an antique razor and need to work on it a bit, so I'm going to be settling down for a bit to do it- make a cup of tea while it soaks: a watched stone never fills... Packaging sucks- a cardboard box, which goes crinkly because you end up putting it away before it is dry throughout. I don't mind making a decent box for a stone, so I should get round to doing this, especially as the stone is so delicate. For the price (�15.28), a very decent piece of kit, worth getting if you live in the UK and expect to repair a few ebay razors.