Resetting a Rooney Finest knot?

[ChiefBroom]

I was recently lucky enough to pick up 2 Rooney-made brushes in Finest Badger from a B&B friend: 1) a Stubby 1, and 2) a rebranded, "Olde Apothecary Shop" Style 1, Size 2. I measure the Stubby 1 to be 22mm at the base of the knot with a 47mm loft, whereas the OAS 1/2 is 24mm x 54mm. I just used the OAS 1/2, so it wouldn't let me take a photo, but I'll post some later. Both brushes are extraordinary (at least in my limited experience). After using the Stubby, however, and ogling and fondling the OAS 1/2 before I used it for the first time a short while ago, the thought came into my mind that the OAS 1/2, as stunning as it is, might rather be 24mm x 48-50mm.

Although the Stubby is both comparatively and absolutely small, one might even say diminutive, it is nonetheless a butt-kicker. Not at all scritchy, but lots of backbone and scrub. The OAS 1/2, on the other hand, when dry felt so luxuriously soft, due largely to its splay, that I was afraid it would fail to match the Stubby's character, and perhaps even turn out to be a bit floppy. So I tried choking up on it about a 3/8" with a rubber band, which substantially reduced the splay and made the brush feel just about the same as the Stubby, at least when both brushes were dry. That made me start to wonder how crazy it might be to reset the OAS 1/2's knot in a handle (maybe the same handle) drilled out a little more deeply.

Now after shaving with the OAS 1/2, I'm less tempted to take any chances with it. It actually seems to have more backbone and scrub, with reduced splay, when wet and soapy than when dry. That might be predictable, but it surprised me. Still not quite the same as the Stubby, but by no means floppy. Just the same, I'm still curious.

Has anyone done anything like that? How nuts does it sound?

 

[mblakele]

Congrats on the acquisition. Resetting such a sought-after brush sounds a bit scary, though I am also curious. As far as I know there are only two ways to get a knot out of a finished brush: mechanical force or steam. Either one has risks for the handle and knot.

Obviously drilling the knot out is unthinkable here. If the knot is at all loose in the handle, the glue could fail and release the knot. Otherwise you are looking at breaking the handle apart, with some risk to the knot also. I believe Rudy Vey has successfully done this once or twice, salvaging the knot but destroying the original handle.

The steam method will probably leave the handle intact as long as it is solid acrylic. But beware of plaster filling or older plastics: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/289319-Win-Some-and-Lose-Some-Restoration-Story. Also I worry about steam affecting the knot. We have some evidence that steam is bad for synthetic knots: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...-Muhle-Silvertip-Fibre-knot-(maybe-a-warning), and the steam method is usually used when replacing a knot.

I have only steamed one brush myself, and it had a boar knot. The process ruined the handle by expanding a couple of pre-existing cracks, so watch out for that. The boar knot was a shedder, so it was a lost cause anyway.

 

[taco8slo]

Definitely sounds like a job for Rudy Vey, that being said, proceed with caution.

 

[ChiefBroom]

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be worth it. The brush peformed far better (according to my preferences) than I'd expected based on how it looks and feels when dry. I still think a 2-4mm reduction in loft would make it even better. But this isn't one to tinker with.

 

[taco8slo]

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be worth it. The brush peformed far better (according to my preferences) than I'd expected based on how it looks and feels when dry. I still think a 2-4mm reduction in loft would make it even better. But this isn't one to tinker with.

Yep, just enjoy them both for their differences, better to be safe than sorry on those bad boys.

 

[celestino]

Just keep using the brush as is! No need to ruin a great brush.

 

[Loric]

I also say that its too nice of a brush to take the chance on. I'v cut a couple knots out of handles, and its incredibly easy to damage a knot. There are not all that many Finest knots out there, so my two cents is its not worth the risk. You might be able to sell yours and wait for a better finest to show up on BST.

 

[ChiefBroom]

I also say that its too nice of a brush to take the chance on. I'v cut a couple knots out of handles, and its incredibly easy to damage a knot. There are not all that many Finest knots out there, so my two cents is its not worth the risk. You might be able to sell yours and wait for a better finest to show up on BST.

I agree, except I'd rather wait for another one (2XL would be great) to show up on BST, and then if I'm lucky enough to snare it, think about whether to part with the OAS 1/2, which there's nothing wrong with. It's a fantastic brush. I just think maybe it would be happier if it were not quite so tall.

 

[MaxP]

You might consider putting an o-ring on it to reduce the height a bit. I don't care for the look of o-rings on brushes, but it is a way to reduce the height without making a major change. After all, the o-ring can easily be removed and the knot returned to "as was" condition.

 

[Loric]

I'v never seen an OAS Finest, do you have a picture of it?

 

[ChiefBroom]

I'v never seen an OAS Finest, do you have a picture of it?

I'll post one tomorrow.

 

[melyus]

i have reknotted about 20+ brushes with steam method but if the knots are similar to the TGN or other ready knots.. if the badger hair directly glued to the handle so no way out the knot .. i have some rooney finest brushes little bit lofty for my taste but i dont want to apply steam bath for them. so use your finest olde apothecary finest as it is if you dont like demage them.
Regards.

 

[ChiefBroom]

I appreciate all of the replies. If I still had any question about what might be best to do after reading them (and I don't), texaninkc's description of the Thater he has offered for sale in this thread would settle it for me. Great deal for someone on that brush, but not a result I'd want to take any risk of having with my OAS.

 

[ChiefBroom]

I'v never seen an OAS Finest, do you have a picture of it?

See photos here.

 

[mblakele]

I have only steamed one brush myself, and it had a boar knot. The process ruined the handle by expanding a couple of pre-existing cracks, so watch out for that. The boar knot was a shedder, so it was a lost cause anyway.

...and now I have steamed two brushes. I think the OP has already given up on this idea, but I wanted to report the results for future reference. This time the modern Rooney-style acrylic resin handle emerged unscathed. However the badger knot was damaged. No tragedy, since my goal is to reknot the handle. The replacement is already on its way.

I used a Chinese-style bamboo steamer on a saucepan half full of water, on an electric stovetop, with a layer of waxed paper under the brush. After 10-min of steam the knot became a shedder. A gentle pull anywhere would remove a hair or two. I believe this was because the glue in the knot itself was softening: the hairs were full-length. After 15-min I felt the knot give. Rocking it back and forth caused the base of the knot to fail, as pictured. A portion of the base was left behind in the handle. More steam might have left less of the base in the handle, but I think the knot would still be a shedder. Apparently the knot glue was more susceptible to heat than the handle adhesive was, so it failed first.

We already know that steam can ruin some handles, and from this experiment I conclude that steam is likely to ruin the knot too.

 

[ChiefBroom]

...and now I have steamed two brushes. I think the OP has already given up on this idea, but I wanted to report the results for future reference. This time the modern Rooney-style acrylic resin handle emerged unscathed. However the badger knot was damaged.

<snip>

We already know that steam can ruin some handles, and from this experiment I conclude that steam is likely to ruin the knot too.

Thanks. I had given up on it, but the notion recently came back to mind. So your follow-up post comes as a timely reminder to leave well enough (damn good in this case) alone.

 

[GDCarrington]

...and now I have steamed two brushes. I think the OP has already given up on this idea, but I wanted to report the results for future reference. This time the modern Rooney-style acrylic resin handle emerged unscathed. However the badger knot was damaged. No tragedy, since my goal is to reknot the handle. The replacement is already on its way.

I used a Chinese-style bamboo steamer on a saucepan half full of water, on an electric stovetop, with a layer of waxed paper under the brush. After 10-min of steam the knot became a shedder. A gentle pull anywhere would remove a hair or two. I believe this was because the glue in the knot itself was softening: the hairs were full-length. After 15-min I felt the knot give. Rocking it back and forth caused the base of the knot to fail, as pictured. A portion of the base was left behind in the handle. More steam might have left less of the base in the handle, but I think the knot would still be a shedder. Apparently the knot glue was more susceptible to heat than the handle adhesive was, so it failed first.

We already know that steam can ruin some handles, and from this experiment I conclude that steam is likely to ruin the knot too.

As many of us who restore on a frequent basis can attest, steam and high heat damages fibers and hairs.

Usually, it is pick your poison, save the knot or the handle, but it is rare when both can be spared.

 

[Benaminh]

:RESURRECT:

How do you save the knot to be remounted in a different handle? No worries if the original handle is destroyed....

 

[mblakele]

With care and force. There is some risk to the knot, but you can mask it off to protect it as much as possible. Then crack open the handle in a vise, or with a hammer. Some folks have used saws, but remember that the base of the knot is in there somewhere.

Reading material:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/140652-Re-handling-a-custom-brush

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/151942-Omega-10072-destruction-and-transformation

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...rations?p=2401577&highlight=omega#post2401577

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/162576-Reknot

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...tore-a-work-in-progress?p=4292284#post4292284

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...-Muhle-Silvertip-Fibre-knot-(maybe-a-warning)

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...ing-a-knot-without-damaging-it(or-the-handle)

 

[catherix]

With care and force. There is some risk to the knot, but you can mask it off to protect it as much as possible. Then crack open the handle in a vise, or with a hammer. Some folks have used saws, but remember that the base of the knot is in there somewhere.

Reading material:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/140652-Re-handling-a-custom-brush

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/151942-Omega-10072-destruction-and-transformation

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...rations?p=2401577&highlight=omega#post2401577

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/162576-Reknot

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...tore-a-work-in-progress?p=4292284#post4292284

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...-Muhle-Silvertip-Fibre-knot-(maybe-a-warning)

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...ing-a-knot-without-damaging-it(or-the-handle)

I will say that the thread in that last link was mine. I was not successful though. The knot is still in there and ain't comin out anytime soon.