Notre Dame Football

[mrob]

This thread has become much more interesting and thoughtful than I would have thought--bravo all!

A couple of thoughts. . .

1. I agree with Randy in that ND is simply not a BCS quality team year in and year out, and its unfair to "reserve" them a spot in the system when more deserving teams (Boise St., Rutgers, Louisville, etc.) get locked out. ND is in on a. tradition and b. its NBC contract, both of which should not matter that much.

How good could ND have been if MSU almost beat them this year?

2. How many of us would be thrilled to have our sons coached by someone like Kyle?

As he says, most of the coaches I have known in my teaching career have been intelligent, thoughtful men with terrific leadership qualities. Unfortunately, we tend to put our focus on the coaches (Bobby Knight, Nick Saban) and players (Terrell Owens, Tank Johnson) who behave poorly at times, rather than on the individuals (Bill Cowher, Marv Levy, Tom Brady) who are great role models for our kids and all of us.

My best friend through a decade of HS teaching was the head football coach--he was also chair of our science department, the principal of our summer school and an all around great guy. We coached hoops together for several years, and I learned more about being a teacher, father and man from him than from anyone I ever knew.

Thanks again for a great thread--its been a pleasure to read.

 

[Kyle]

...They should also tie scholorships into the graduation rate.

They actually do. The structure and implementation of this legislation was hastily slapped together so there are still many kinks to work out of it, but is does exist.

This system (Academic Progress Rate or APR) works off of a point system and penalizes schools who don't meet requirements by loss of scholarships. If anyone would care to read about the intracacies of the system, go to www.ncaa.org and do a search for APR.

The interesting thing about all of this is, again, is that athletics programs are showing better retention and graduation rates than the general student body.

 

[mrob]

Absolutely true. The rates for students graduating in 5 years are actually pretty low for the general student body, and usually much higher for athletes.

There's also no recognition of the difference between players leaving for another school and graduating from that school and players who simply leave school--very different things.

Hardly anyone talks about this, but its true.

 

[Kyle]

Excellent points, Mitch. I read a story a few months back about a basketball team that had had 1 athlete transfer to another school, 2 athletes get drafted after their junior year of competition, 1 athlete had to leave school to help support a dying mother, and a 5th athlete quit the team to go be a preacher. Despite the fact that all students left under good academic standing, it sure didn't do much for graduation rates.

Further, these very issues are the ones that have made APR legislation so controversial. Before the last round of amendments were made, the aforementioned basketball team would have suffered program crippling penalties much more severe than the old "death penalty" that has been credited for destroying programs such as the SMU football program in the late '80's - early '90's.

 

[tm3]

ESPN has or had a show on the most overrated 25 things in sports. ND was ranked #5.

iirc ND just set an NCAA record for 9 straight bowl losses. also, ND reportedly has not beaten a top 10 ranked team in its last 17 attempts, dating back to lou holtz.

my opinion? the whole NCAA football business has gotten much, much more competitive thus ND has lost some of the edge it used to have in attracting the best of the best. more importantly, however, there have been coaching problems. i think that weiss is going to correct that, and is well on his way.

ND has always been a media "darling" and imo gets overranked, overrated, and overmatched in bowl games. i think that this is why so many people say that their second favorite team is whoever is playing ND that day. of course, NDs 11 national championships may also create some jealousy factor.

i don't buy the academic excellence theory. i think all schools cut corners big time for their star athletes, a 4.4 40 being much more important than a 3.4 GPA. a friend of mine, who is very intelligent, played football at wake forest which has high academic standards. he said it was unbelievable how dumb some of his teammates were. it was also unbelievable how physically talented they were.

 

[TraderJoe]

i think all schools cut corners big time for their star athletes,

you are certainly welcome to think that, but I think its a false statement...a generalization at best

 

[castlecraver]

we tend to put our focus on the coaches (Bobby Knight, Nick Saban) and players (Terrell Owens, Tank Johnson) who behave poorly at times, rather than...

Bobby Knight should never be spoke of in the same sentence as the other 3.

 

[Kyle]

i don't buy the academic excellence theory. i think all schools cut corners big time for their star athletes, a 4.4 40 being much more important than a 3.4 GPA. a friend of mine, who is very intelligent, played football at wake forest which has high academic standards. he said it was unbelievable how dumb some of his teammates were. it was also unbelievable how physically talented they were.

No "theories" have been stated here. Information that I have provided is gleaned from multiple different studies studies and my own personal experience from working in the profession.

As Joe states, you may choose to believe whatever you wish, but it doesn't change what is factually true.

Collegiate athletics has changed dramatically over the last 10-15 years and will undoubtedly continue to do so. Illegal practices that were commonplace in the past are just that, in the past. Certainly there will always be a small percentage of coaches and athletes that will break the rules, but this is no different than any other profession.

Viewing isolated incidents as a means for judging a group of people is the same reason that racism and discrimination exist. It is small minded and dead wrong.

 

[berzerkeleyan]

Unfortunately, we tend to put our focus on the coaches (Bobby Knight, Nick Saban) and players (Terrell Owens, Tank Johnson) who behave poorly at times...

Bobby Knight should never be spoke of in the same sentence as the other 3.

I don't mean to throw gasoline on the fire, Pat. But Bobby Knight hasn't behaved boorish at times?

 

[mrob]

I would just say that Bobby Knight is not someone I would want my boys to play for. He's a great coach, and a brilliant tactician, but can't control his temper, has had physical altercations with his players, and has real problems with authority.

His behavior while at Indiana became such a problem that multiple faculty members, deans and presidents needed to take action. He's a bully who exerts total control over every aspect of his program--which produces lots of wins, to be sure, but at what cost?

Knight's career is an example of winning taking precedence over class, IMO. I have no problem with him being mentioned along with the other names in my previous post.

 

[castlecraver]

I would just say that Bobby Knight is not someone I would want my boys to play for. He's a great coach, and a brilliant tactician, but can't control his temper, has had physical altercations with his players, and has real problems with authority.

His behavior while at Indiana became such a problem that multiple faculty members, deans and presidents needed to take action. He's a bully who exerts total control over every aspect of his program--which produces lots of wins, to be sure, but at what cost?

Knight's career is an example of winning taking precedence over class, IMO. I have no problem with him being mentioned along with the other names in my previous post.

I apologize for getting this thread off topic, so although I won't respond directly to your points here (this is a topic that's very near and dear to my heart, and would consist of a long, passionate post that likely wouldn't change your mind anyway), you're incomplete on your first point (physical altercations), incorrect on your entire second sentence, and entirely unfair on your final point. IM_O. (nothing humble about it ).

My original complaint, lets say in the case of the comparison to T.O., is that you can't compare argueably the best college basketball coach in history (and unarguably the winningest ) who doesn't talk smack of any sort about his own accomplishments to an overrated attention hog who's never won anything. It's not even a matter of "winning over class" -- IMO, Coach Knight has BOTH, T.O. has NEITHER.

Edit: If someone wants to start a Bob Knight thread, I'll consider taking up my arguement more completely there later, but this thread really isn't the place for it. You can find the same discussion on any college basketball forum anyway, and I'm pissed off that the Patriots won and I just missed out on buying a Nintendo Wii this morning... so forgive me if I sound terse.

 

[mrob]

I'd be happy to move this discussion to a new BK post, and fascinated to know how Bobby's behavior at IU wasn't that bad, seeing as he:

threatened the provost at the salad bar in the faculty dining room

got fired after numerous warnings

saw the president who fired him become president of the NCAA as a result, and

wound up at Texas Tech, where his old buddy was the AD and hired him.

I think those are all facts, and unless you have some previously unearthed information--which I'm sure Coach Knight would have loved to been made known at the time--you are still well within your rights to like and respect Knight as a coach, but there's not a chance that you'll be able to change my mind about what kind of man he is.

As I said above, I agree that he is a great tactical coach and has the results to prove it. I just would never agree to behave the way he has in order to get those results.